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To : SATDIG@WW
Today's Topics:
1. Re: 2018 Corrected AMSAT Board of Directors Ballots
(Gabriel Zeifman)
2. Re: 2018 Corrected AMSAT Board of Directors Ballots
(Vince Fiscus, KB7ADL)
3. Re: 2018 Corrected AMSAT Board of Directors Ballots (Jerry Buxton)
4. Re: 2018 Corrected AMSAT Board of Directors Ballots (Eric Fort)
5. Re: 2018 Corrected AMSAT Board of Directors Ballots
(Paul Stoetzer)
6. Re: 2018 Corrected AMSAT Board of Directors Ballots (Bruce)
7. Re: 2018 Corrected AMSAT Board of Directors Ballots (Eric Fort)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2018 06:53:51 -0800
From: Gabriel Zeifman <gabrielzeifman@?????.???>
To: "E.Mike McCardel" <mccardelm@?????.???>
Cc: AMSAT Mailing List <amsat-bb@?????.???>, Clayton Coleman W5PFG
<tasmac@?????.??>
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] 2018 Corrected AMSAT Board of Directors
Ballots
Message-ID:
<CAEGYLCsMOJMq7KsBqaKF_cwHB2++SCvVJq9PgMPF-jgcsTVU0g@????.?????.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Does AMSAT maintain a printing press and envelope factory to produce the
current mailings? I think the solution is called "contracting" and I am
aware that there are companies that offer such services at a reasonable
cost.
73,
Gabe
AL6D/VE6NJH
On Wed, Jul 18, 2018, 4:53 AM E.Mike McCardel <mccardelm@?????.???> wrote:
> What would the upfront cost of setting up electronic voting? It seems to
> me that it would be analogous to Solar electricity. Higher end, up front
> cost verses ?free? power down the road.
> If you are advocating the change are you willing to invest your own time
> energy and perhaps $$$ to reduce the cost to AMSAT? After all can a cash
> strapped organization afford $10k or higher solution right now, even for
> lower cost in the future?
> Regardless this will not be an overnight solution. Like building a
> satellite it will require planning and deadlines and engineering, both
> software and social.
> I personally like the idea on online voting. I also like the idea of
> electronic delivery of the Journal, but we have found even that is a bit
> more complicated and costly than one might think.
>
> 73
> EMike
>
>
> EMike McCardel, AA8EM
> Rotating Editor AMSAT News Service
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Jul 18, 2018, at 1:11 AM, Devin L. Ganger <devin@????????.???> wrote:
> >
> > Concur with AF6EP. Doing electronic ballots is inexpensive. Doing them
> *correctly* is not.
> >
> >
> > --
> > Devin L. Ganger (WA7DLG)
> > email: devin@????????.???
> > web: Devin on Earth
> > cell: +1 425.239.2575
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: AMSAT-BB <amsat-bb-bounces@?????.???> On Behalf Of Eric Fort
> >> Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2018 9:55 PM
> >> To: Mike Diehl <diehl.mike.a@?????.???>
> >> Cc: Clayton Coleman W5PFG <tasmac@?????.??>; AMSAT Mailing List
> >> <amsat-bb@?????.???>; Gabriel Zeifman <gabrielzeifman@?????.???>
> >> Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] 2018 Corrected AMSAT Board of Directors Ballots
> >>
> >> The basic problem with electronic voting is proving who is behind the
> >> keyboard and tracing the data with integrity such that each voter only
> casts
> >> one ballot. With paper ballots this is possible. What is done is the
> paper ballot
> >> is placed in an envelope that is signed by the voter. The signature and
> >> registration info can then be compared on receipt, verifying that one
> and
> >> only one ballot was cast by that specific voter. The ballot is then
> separated
> >> from the envelope to be counted assuring the anonymity of the voter. In
> the
> >> digital realm one can not have anonymity, traceability, and verifiablity
> >> simultaneously. These are mathematically proven therems and entire
> papers
> >> and PhD thesis?s have been written on this topic proving this exact
> thing. Do
> >> the research. Paper verified ballots really are the only way.
> >>
> >> Eric
> >> Af6ep
> >>
> >> Sent using SMTP.
> >>
> >>> On Jul 17, 2018, at 6:42 PM, Mike Diehl <diehl.mike.a@?????.???>
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Disagree. There are online services that are just as, if not more,
> secure as
> >> your medical information or where you spend your money. Going to print
> >> with anything takes a lot more work than simply providing some options
> to a
> >> voting service. Then there?s postage. Online is also more convenient,
> you can
> >> pretty much do it anytime, anywhere you want. Think of it like LOTW for
> >> QSLs, saves a ton in paper, postage and trips to the post.
> >>>
> >>> Last but not least is I don?t see a real threat of people ?hacking? the
> >> elections for jobs that don?t pay and are full of criticism.
> >>>
> >>> 73,
> >>> Mike Diehl
> >>> W8LID
> >>>
> >>>> On Jul 17, 2018, at 19:44, Eric Fort <
> eric.fort.listmail@??????????????.???>
> >> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Let?s not get into electronic voting. Too much opportunity to ?hack
> the
> >> vote?. It?s unfortunate that an error was made and not caught prior to
> >> printing and mailing but electronic voting is not the answer.
> >>>>
> >>>> Eric
> >>>> Af6ep
> >>>>
> >>>> Sent using SMTP.
> >>>>
> >>>>> On Jul 17, 2018, at 3:40 PM, Gabriel Zeifman
> >> <gabrielzeifman@?????.???> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> How unfortunate that our cash strapped, technology oriented
> >>>>> organization is having to waste so much money to print and mail two
> >>>>> sets of paper ballots to each and every member. Seems to me that
> >>>>> electronic voting would save the organization money, make voting
> >>>>> more secure and efficient, prevent mishaps such as this, and prevent
> >>>>> some members from not receiving ballots like last year.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 73,
> >>>>> Gabe
> >>>>> AL6D/VE6NJH
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> On Tue, Jul 17, 2018, 2:33 PM Clayton Coleman W5PFG
> >> <tasmac@?????.??> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Due to a printing error, the beige-colored ballots mailed to
> >>>>>> AMSAT-NA members for the 2018 Board of Directors election on July
> >>>>>> 15, 2018 have been declared void. Any of these voided ballots
> >>>>>> received at the AMSAT-NA office will not be counted.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> New ballots, labeled ?CORRECTED BALLOT 7/20/2018? and printed on
> >>>>>> yellow-colored cardstock will be mailed to all AMSAT-NA members.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Please vote for no more than three of the 2018 candidates:
> >>>>>> Tom Clark, K3IO
> >>>>>> Mark Hammond, N8MH
> >>>>>> Scott Harvey, KA7FVV
> >>>>>> Bruce Paige, KK5DO
> >>>>>> Peter Portanova, W2JV
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> The Directors positions will go to the three candidates receiving
> >>>>>> the highest number of votes. In addition, there will be two
> >>>>>> alternate members chosen, based on the next highest number of
> >> votes received.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> 73,
> >>>>>> Clayton
> >>>>>> W5PFG
> >>>>>> AMSAT-NA Corporate Secretary
> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum
> >>>>>> available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring
> >>>>>> membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and
> >>>>>> do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA.
> >>>>>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
> >> program!
> >>>>>> Subscription settings:
> >>>>>> http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum
> >>>>> available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring
> >>>>> membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do
> >> not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA.
> >>>>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
> >> program!
> >>>>> Subscription settings:
> >>>>> http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum
> >> available
> >>>> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
> >>>> Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect
> the
> >> official views of AMSAT-NA.
> >>>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
> >> program!
> >>>> Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
> >> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
> Opinions
> >> expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the
> official views
> >> of AMSAT-NA.
> >> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
> >> program!
> >> Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
> > _______________________________________________
> > Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
> > to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
> Opinions expressed
> > are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
> AMSAT-NA.
> > Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
> program!
> > Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2018 10:15:09 -0600
From: "Vince Fiscus, KB7ADL" <vlfiscus@???.???>
To: amsat-bb@?????.???
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] 2018 Corrected AMSAT Board of Directors
Ballots
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.2.20180718101056.00c52770@???.?????????.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
At 06:42 PM 7/17/2018 -0500, Scott Medbury wrote:
>These errors seem to be increasing in frequency. Scott KD5FBA
I hope it's not Russian's hacking our elections.
KB7ADL
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2018 11:39:07 -0500
From: Jerry Buxton <n0jy@?????.???>
To: AMSAT -BB <amsat-bb@?????.???>
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] 2018 Corrected AMSAT Board of Directors
Ballots
Message-ID: <3bd84c08-a9ee-2b71-496f-53c9e71cb493@?????.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
On 7/17/2018 23:17, Tucker McGuire wrote:
> I would also encourage the AMSAT-NA BOD to consider amending the
> bylaws, regarding voting.
The subject was brought up on the Tactical Planning Teleconference
Tuesday night.? The Board of Directors is aware of the issue of course,
and I'm sure there will be further consideration.? I'm sure that will be
a lively discussion.? I just wanted to point out where the process is
laid out and what has to be done to change it, for the purpose of the
discussion here.
Jerry Buxton, N?JY
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2018 09:52:25 -0700
From: Eric Fort <eric.fort.listmail@??????????????.???>
To: Gabriel Zeifman <gabrielzeifman@?????.???>
Cc: AMSAT Mailing List <amsat-bb@?????.???>, "E.Mike McCardel"
<mccardelm@?????.???>, Clayton Coleman W5PFG <tasmac@?????.??>
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] 2018 Corrected AMSAT Board of Directors
Ballots
Message-ID: <1DCFFF06-D255-45DD-8DBA-BA64BE6FEFAC@??????????????.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Perhaps there is a happy medium here. How about emailing the ballot as a pdf
to each member. If necessary each pdf could be encoded slightly different
(possibly serialized) for each member. It is then up to the member to print
and mail the return ballot. If one wanted to squabble over postage that can
be printed as well. The key to this is that the info that identifies the
unique ballot is not linked in any way to the member it was sent to but the
member can verify from the serial number that is known only to them that the
ballot was received and counted.
Eric
Af6ep
Sent using SMTP.
> On Jul 18, 2018, at 7:53 AM, Gabriel Zeifman <gabrielzeifman@?????.???>
wrote:
>
> Does AMSAT maintain a printing press and envelope factory to produce the
current mailings? I think the solution is called "contracting" and I am
aware that there are companies that offer such services at a reasonable cost.
>
> 73,
> Gabe
> AL6D/VE6NJH
>
>> On Wed, Jul 18, 2018, 4:53 AM E.Mike McCardel <mccardelm@?????.???> wrote:
>> What would the upfront cost of setting up electronic voting? It seems to
me that it would be analogous to Solar electricity. Higher end, up front
cost verses ?free? power down the road.
>> If you are advocating the change are you willing to invest your own time
energy and perhaps $$$ to reduce the cost to AMSAT? After all can a cash
strapped organization afford $10k or higher solution right now, even for
lower cost in the future?
>> Regardless this will not be an overnight solution. Like building a
satellite it will require planning and deadlines and engineering, both
software and social.
>> I personally like the idea on online voting. I also like the idea of
electronic delivery of the Journal, but we have found even that is a bit
more complicated and costly than one might think.
>>
>> 73
>> EMike
>>
>>
>> EMike McCardel, AA8EM
>> Rotating Editor AMSAT News Service
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> > On Jul 18, 2018, at 1:11 AM, Devin L. Ganger <devin@????????.???> wrote:
>> >
>> > Concur with AF6EP. Doing electronic ballots is inexpensive. Doing them
*correctly* is not.
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Devin L. Ganger (WA7DLG)
>> > email: devin@????????.???
>> > web: Devin on Earth
>> > cell: +1 425.239.2575
>> >
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From: AMSAT-BB <amsat-bb-bounces@?????.???> On Behalf Of Eric Fort
>> >> Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2018 9:55 PM
>> >> To: Mike Diehl <diehl.mike.a@?????.???>
>> >> Cc: Clayton Coleman W5PFG <tasmac@?????.??>; AMSAT Mailing List
>> >> <amsat-bb@?????.???>; Gabriel Zeifman <gabrielzeifman@?????.???>
>> >> Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] 2018 Corrected AMSAT Board of Directors Ballots
>> >>
>> >> The basic problem with electronic voting is proving who is behind the
>> >> keyboard and tracing the data with integrity such that each voter only
casts
>> >> one ballot. With paper ballots this is possible. What is done is the
paper ballot
>> >> is placed in an envelope that is signed by the voter. The signature and
>> >> registration info can then be compared on receipt, verifying that one
and
>> >> only one ballot was cast by that specific voter. The ballot is then
separated
>> >> from the envelope to be counted assuring the anonymity of the voter.
In the
>> >> digital realm one can not have anonymity, traceability, and verifiablity
>> >> simultaneously. These are mathematically proven therems and entire
papers
>> >> and PhD thesis?s have been written on this topic proving this exact
thing. Do
>> >> the research. Paper verified ballots really are the only way.
>> >>
>> >> Eric
>> >> Af6ep
>> >>
>> >> Sent using SMTP.
>> >>
>> >>> On Jul 17, 2018, at 6:42 PM, Mike Diehl <diehl.mike.a@?????.???> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> Disagree. There are online services that are just as, if not more,
secure as
>> >> your medical information or where you spend your money. Going to print
>> >> with anything takes a lot more work than simply providing some options
to a
>> >> voting service. Then there?s postage. Online is also more convenient,
you can
>> >> pretty much do it anytime, anywhere you want. Think of it like LOTW for
>> >> QSLs, saves a ton in paper, postage and trips to the post.
>> >>>
>> >>> Last but not least is I don?t see a real threat of people ?hacking? the
>> >> elections for jobs that don?t pay and are full of criticism.
>> >>>
>> >>> 73,
>> >>> Mike Diehl
>> >>> W8LID
>> >>>
>> >>>> On Jul 17, 2018, at 19:44, Eric Fort
<eric.fort.listmail@??????????????.???>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Let?s not get into electronic voting. Too much opportunity to ?hack
the
>> >> vote?. It?s unfortunate that an error was made and not caught prior to
>> >> printing and mailing but electronic voting is not the answer.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Eric
>> >>>> Af6ep
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Sent using SMTP.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> On Jul 17, 2018, at 3:40 PM, Gabriel Zeifman
>> >> <gabrielzeifman@?????.???> wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> How unfortunate that our cash strapped, technology oriented
>> >>>>> organization is having to waste so much money to print and mail two
>> >>>>> sets of paper ballots to each and every member. Seems to me that
>> >>>>> electronic voting would save the organization money, make voting
>> >>>>> more secure and efficient, prevent mishaps such as this, and prevent
>> >>>>> some members from not receiving ballots like last year.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> 73,
>> >>>>> Gabe
>> >>>>> AL6D/VE6NJH
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>> On Tue, Jul 17, 2018, 2:33 PM Clayton Coleman W5PFG
>> >> <tasmac@?????.??> wrote:
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Due to a printing error, the beige-colored ballots mailed to
>> >>>>>> AMSAT-NA members for the 2018 Board of Directors election on July
>> >>>>>> 15, 2018 have been declared void. Any of these voided ballots
>> >>>>>> received at the AMSAT-NA office will not be counted.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> New ballots, labeled ?CORRECTED BALLOT 7/20/2018? and printed on
>> >>>>>> yellow-colored cardstock will be mailed to all AMSAT-NA members.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Please vote for no more than three of the 2018 candidates:
>> >>>>>> Tom Clark, K3IO
>> >>>>>> Mark Hammond, N8MH
>> >>>>>> Scott Harvey, KA7FVV
>> >>>>>> Bruce Paige, KK5DO
>> >>>>>> Peter Portanova, W2JV
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> The Directors positions will go to the three candidates receiving
>> >>>>>> the highest number of votes. In addition, there will be two
>> >>>>>> alternate members chosen, based on the next highest number of
>> >> votes received.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> 73,
>> >>>>>> Clayton
>> >>>>>> W5PFG
>> >>>>>> AMSAT-NA Corporate Secretary
>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>>>> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum
>> >>>>>> available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring
>> >>>>>> membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and
>> >>>>>> do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA.
>> >>>>>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
>> >> program!
>> >>>>>> Subscription settings:
>> >>>>>> http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>>> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum
>> >>>>> available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring
>> >>>>> membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do
>> >> not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA.
>> >>>>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
>> >> program!
>> >>>>> Subscription settings:
>> >>>>> http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>> >>>>
>> >>>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum
>> >> available
>> >>>> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
>> >>>> Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not
reflect the
>> >> official views of AMSAT-NA.
>> >>>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
>> >> program!
>> >>>> Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
>> >> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
Opinions
>> >> expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the
official views
>> >> of AMSAT-NA.
>> >> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
>> >> program!
>> >> Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
>> > to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
Opinions expressed
>> > are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views
of AMSAT-NA.
>> > Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
program!
>> > Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2018 12:54:33 -0400
From: Paul Stoetzer <n8hm@????.???>
To: Eric Fort <eric.fort.listmail@??????????????.???>
Cc: Clayton Coleman W5PFG <tasmac@?????.??>, AMSAT Mailing List
<amsat-bb@?????.???>, "E.Mike McCardel" <mccardelm@?????.???>, Gabriel
Zeifman <gabrielzeifman@?????.???>
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] 2018 Corrected AMSAT Board of Directors
Ballots
Message-ID:
<CABzOSOqVc21JsPWcvhxu7mRDgcU85ohdZD=LSX0Sx07JUO7bUw@????.?????.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Remember that we have life members dating to the early 1970s. We don't
have email addresses for all of our members in order to do something
like that.
73,
Paul, N8HM
On Wed, Jul 18, 2018 at 12:52 PM, Eric Fort
<eric.fort.listmail@??????????????.???> wrote:
> Perhaps there is a happy medium here. How about emailing the ballot as a
pdf to each member. If necessary each pdf could be encoded slightly
different (possibly serialized) for each member. It is then up to the member
to print and mail the return ballot. If one wanted to squabble over postage
that can be printed as well. The key to this is that the info that
identifies the unique ballot is not linked in any way to the member it was
sent to but the member can verify from the serial number that is known only
to them that the ballot was received and counted.
>
> Eric
> Af6ep
>
> Sent using SMTP.
>
>> On Jul 18, 2018, at 7:53 AM, Gabriel Zeifman <gabrielzeifman@?????.???>
wrote:
>>
>> Does AMSAT maintain a printing press and envelope factory to produce the
current mailings? I think the solution is called "contracting" and I am
aware that there are companies that offer such services at a reasonable cost.
>>
>> 73,
>> Gabe
>> AL6D/VE6NJH
>>
>>> On Wed, Jul 18, 2018, 4:53 AM E.Mike McCardel <mccardelm@?????.???> wrote:
>>> What would the upfront cost of setting up electronic voting? It seems to
me that it would be analogous to Solar electricity. Higher end, up front
cost verses ?free? power down the road.
>>> If you are advocating the change are you willing to invest your own time
energy and perhaps $$$ to reduce the cost to AMSAT? After all can a cash
strapped organization afford $10k or higher solution right now, even for
lower cost in the future?
>>> Regardless this will not be an overnight solution. Like building a
satellite it will require planning and deadlines and engineering, both
software and social.
>>> I personally like the idea on online voting. I also like the idea of
electronic delivery of the Journal, but we have found even that is a bit
more complicated and costly than one might think.
>>>
>>> 73
>>> EMike
>>>
>>>
>>> EMike McCardel, AA8EM
>>> Rotating Editor AMSAT News Service
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>> > On Jul 18, 2018, at 1:11 AM, Devin L. Ganger <devin@????????.???> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > Concur with AF6EP. Doing electronic ballots is inexpensive. Doing them
*correctly* is not.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > --
>>> > Devin L. Ganger (WA7DLG)
>>> > email: devin@????????.???
>>> > web: Devin on Earth
>>> > cell: +1 425.239.2575
>>> >
>>> >> -----Original Message-----
>>> >> From: AMSAT-BB <amsat-bb-bounces@?????.???> On Behalf Of Eric Fort
>>> >> Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2018 9:55 PM
>>> >> To: Mike Diehl <diehl.mike.a@?????.???>
>>> >> Cc: Clayton Coleman W5PFG <tasmac@?????.??>; AMSAT Mailing List
>>> >> <amsat-bb@?????.???>; Gabriel Zeifman <gabrielzeifman@?????.???>
>>> >> Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] 2018 Corrected AMSAT Board of Directors Ballots
>>> >>
>>> >> The basic problem with electronic voting is proving who is behind the
>>> >> keyboard and tracing the data with integrity such that each voter
only casts
>>> >> one ballot. With paper ballots this is possible. What is done is the
paper ballot
>>> >> is placed in an envelope that is signed by the voter. The signature and
>>> >> registration info can then be compared on receipt, verifying that one
and
>>> >> only one ballot was cast by that specific voter. The ballot is then
separated
>>> >> from the envelope to be counted assuring the anonymity of the voter.
In the
>>> >> digital realm one can not have anonymity, traceability, and
verifiablity
>>> >> simultaneously. These are mathematically proven therems and entire
papers
>>> >> and PhD thesis?s have been written on this topic proving this exact
thing. Do
>>> >> the research. Paper verified ballots really are the only way.
>>> >>
>>> >> Eric
>>> >> Af6ep
>>> >>
>>> >> Sent using SMTP.
>>> >>
>>> >>> On Jul 17, 2018, at 6:42 PM, Mike Diehl <diehl.mike.a@?????.???>
wrote:
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Disagree. There are online services that are just as, if not more,
secure as
>>> >> your medical information or where you spend your money. Going to print
>>> >> with anything takes a lot more work than simply providing some
options to a
>>> >> voting service. Then there?s postage. Online is also more convenient,
you can
>>> >> pretty much do it anytime, anywhere you want. Think of it like LOTW for
>>> >> QSLs, saves a ton in paper, postage and trips to the post.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Last but not least is I don?t see a real threat of people ?hacking?
the
>>> >> elections for jobs that don?t pay and are full of criticism.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> 73,
>>> >>> Mike Diehl
>>> >>> W8LID
>>> >>>
>>> >>>> On Jul 17, 2018, at 19:44, Eric Fort
<eric.fort.listmail@??????????????.???>
>>> >> wrote:
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Let?s not get into electronic voting. Too much opportunity to ?hack
the
>>> >> vote?. It?s unfortunate that an error was made and not caught prior
to
>>> >> printing and mailing but electronic voting is not the answer.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Eric
>>> >>>> Af6ep
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Sent using SMTP.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>> On Jul 17, 2018, at 3:40 PM, Gabriel Zeifman
>>> >> <gabrielzeifman@?????.???> wrote:
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> How unfortunate that our cash strapped, technology oriented
>>> >>>>> organization is having to waste so much money to print and mail two
>>> >>>>> sets of paper ballots to each and every member. Seems to me that
>>> >>>>> electronic voting would save the organization money, make voting
>>> >>>>> more secure and efficient, prevent mishaps such as this, and prevent
>>> >>>>> some members from not receiving ballots like last year.
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> 73,
>>> >>>>> Gabe
>>> >>>>> AL6D/VE6NJH
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>> On Tue, Jul 17, 2018, 2:33 PM Clayton Coleman W5PFG
>>> >> <tasmac@?????.??> wrote:
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> Due to a printing error, the beige-colored ballots mailed to
>>> >>>>>> AMSAT-NA members for the 2018 Board of Directors election on July
>>> >>>>>> 15, 2018 have been declared void. Any of these voided ballots
>>> >>>>>> received at the AMSAT-NA office will not be counted.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> New ballots, labeled ?CORRECTED BALLOT 7/20/2018? and printed on
>>> >>>>>> yellow-colored cardstock will be mailed to all AMSAT-NA members.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> Please vote for no more than three of the 2018 candidates:
>>> >>>>>> Tom Clark, K3IO
>>> >>>>>> Mark Hammond, N8MH
>>> >>>>>> Scott Harvey, KA7FVV
>>> >>>>>> Bruce Paige, KK5DO
>>> >>>>>> Peter Portanova, W2JV
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> The Directors positions will go to the three candidates receiving
>>> >>>>>> the highest number of votes. In addition, there will be two
>>> >>>>>> alternate members chosen, based on the next highest number of
>>> >> votes received.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> 73,
>>> >>>>>> Clayton
>>> >>>>>> W5PFG
>>> >>>>>> AMSAT-NA Corporate Secretary
>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>> >>>>>> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum
>>> >>>>>> available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring
>>> >>>>>> membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and
>>> >>>>>> do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA.
>>> >>>>>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
>>> >> program!
>>> >>>>>> Subscription settings:
>>> >>>>>> http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________
>>> >>>>> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum
>>> >>>>> available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring
>>> >>>>> membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and
do
>>> >> not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA.
>>> >>>>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
>>> >> program!
>>> >>>>> Subscription settings:
>>> >>>>> http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> _______________________________________________
>>> >>>> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum
>>> >> available
>>> >>>> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
>>> >>>> Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not
reflect the
>>> >> official views of AMSAT-NA.
>>> >>>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
>>> >> program!
>>> >>>> Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>>> >>
>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>> >> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
>>> >> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
Opinions
>>> >> expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the
official views
>>> >> of AMSAT-NA.
>>> >> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
>>> >> program!
>>> >> Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
>>> > to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
Opinions expressed
>>> > are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views
of AMSAT-NA.
>>> > Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
program!
>>> > Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
> _______________________________________________
> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions
expressed
> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
AMSAT-NA.
> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
> Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2018 11:54:06 -0500
From: Bruce <kk5do@?????.???>
To: amsat-bb@?????.???
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] 2018 Corrected AMSAT Board of Directors
Ballots
Message-ID: <1E008F23-60EE-4A42-81CF-1B73E0C1D44B@?????.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
The cost for electronic voting would still involve mailing out a ballot.
That cannot be changed. A corporation must abide by certain rules. We could
hire a company to do electronic ballots which would be an additional charge.
There is no one time setup and then less expensive year after year. The
companies that do this charge every year. I do not think we have the
resources to do mail and electronic ballots at this time. This has been
discussed many times by the board.
73...bruce
Sent from my iPhone
On Jul 18, 2018, at 11:39 AM, Jerry Buxton <n0jy@?????.???> wrote:
On 7/17/2018 23:17, Tucker McGuire wrote:
> I would also encourage the AMSAT-NA BOD to consider amending the
> bylaws, regarding voting.
The subject was brought up on the Tactical Planning Teleconference
Tuesday night. The Board of Directors is aware of the issue of course,
and I'm sure there will be further consideration. I'm sure that will be
a lively discussion. I just wanted to point out where the process is
laid out and what has to be done to change it, for the purpose of the
discussion here.
Jerry Buxton, N?JY
_______________________________________________
Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions
expressed
are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
AMSAT-NA.
Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2018 10:03:13 -0700
From: Eric Fort <eric.fort.listmail@??????????????.???>
To: Paul Stoetzer <n8hm@????.???>
Cc: Clayton Coleman W5PFG <tasmac@?????.??>, AMSAT Mailing List
<amsat-bb@?????.???>, "E.Mike McCardel" <mccardelm@?????.???>, Gabriel
Zeifman <gabrielzeifman@?????.???>
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] 2018 Corrected AMSAT Board of Directors
Ballots
Message-ID: <5E343D35-1EC0-4696-BDE8-66111320DA54@??????????????.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Good point. But perhaps to significantly reduce the costs of mailing an opt
in to receiving the ballot via email could be instituted. While the opt in
should probably be done by paper such that there is a verifiable record of
such it could easily be done via a printable form the same as voting and the
form mailed with renewal or separately at any time.
Eric
Af6ep
Sent using SMTP.
> On Jul 18, 2018, at 9:54 AM, Paul Stoetzer <n8hm@????.???> wrote:
>
> Remember that we have life members dating to the early 1970s. We don't
> have email addresses for all of our members in order to do something
> like that.
>
> 73,
>
> Paul, N8HM
>
> On Wed, Jul 18, 2018 at 12:52 PM, Eric Fort
> <eric.fort.listmail@??????????????.???> wrote:
>> Perhaps there is a happy medium here. How about emailing the ballot as a
pdf to each member. If necessary each pdf could be encoded slightly
different (possibly serialized) for each member. It is then up to the member
to print and mail the return ballot. If one wanted to squabble over postage
that can be printed as well. The key to this is that the info that
identifies the unique ballot is not linked in any way to the member it was
sent to but the member can verify from the serial number that is known only
to them that the ballot was received and counted.
>>
>> Eric
>> Af6ep
>>
>> Sent using SMTP.
>>
>>> On Jul 18, 2018, at 7:53 AM, Gabriel Zeifman <gabrielzeifman@?????.???>
wrote:
>>>
>>> Does AMSAT maintain a printing press and envelope factory to produce the
current mailings? I think the solution is called "contracting" and I am
aware that there are companies that offer such services at a reasonable cost.
>>>
>>> 73,
>>> Gabe
>>> AL6D/VE6NJH
>>>
>>>> On Wed, Jul 18, 2018, 4:53 AM E.Mike McCardel <mccardelm@?????.???>
wrote:
>>>> What would the upfront cost of setting up electronic voting? It seems
to me that it would be analogous to Solar electricity. Higher end, up front
cost verses ?free? power down the road.
>>>> If you are advocating the change are you willing to invest your own
time energy and perhaps $$$ to reduce the cost to AMSAT? After all can a
cash strapped organization afford $10k or higher solution right now, even
for lower cost in the future?
>>>> Regardless this will not be an overnight solution. Like building a
satellite it will require planning and deadlines and engineering, both
software and social.
>>>> I personally like the idea on online voting. I also like the idea of
electronic delivery of the Journal, but we have found even that is a bit
more complicated and costly than one might think.
>>>>
>>>> 73
>>>> EMike
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> EMike McCardel, AA8EM
>>>> Rotating Editor AMSAT News Service
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>
>>>>> On Jul 18, 2018, at 1:11 AM, Devin L. Ganger <devin@????????.???> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Concur with AF6EP. Doing electronic ballots is inexpensive. Doing them
*correctly* is not.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Devin L. Ganger (WA7DLG)
>>>>> email: devin@????????.???
>>>>> web: Devin on Earth
>>>>> cell: +1 425.239.2575
>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: AMSAT-BB <amsat-bb-bounces@?????.???> On Behalf Of Eric Fort
>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2018 9:55 PM
>>>>>> To: Mike Diehl <diehl.mike.a@?????.???>
>>>>>> Cc: Clayton Coleman W5PFG <tasmac@?????.??>; AMSAT Mailing List
>>>>>> <amsat-bb@?????.???>; Gabriel Zeifman <gabrielzeifman@?????.???>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] 2018 Corrected AMSAT Board of Directors Ballots
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The basic problem with electronic voting is proving who is behind the
>>>>>> keyboard and tracing the data with integrity such that each voter
only casts
>>>>>> one ballot. With paper ballots this is possible. What is done is the
paper ballot
>>>>>> is placed in an envelope that is signed by the voter. The signature and
>>>>>> registration info can then be compared on receipt, verifying that one
and
>>>>>> only one ballot was cast by that specific voter. The ballot is then
separated
>>>>>> from the envelope to be counted assuring the anonymity of the voter.
In the
>>>>>> digital realm one can not have anonymity, traceability, and
verifiablity
>>>>>> simultaneously. These are mathematically proven therems and entire
papers
>>>>>> and PhD thesis?s have been written on this topic proving this exact
thing. Do
>>>>>> the research. Paper verified ballots really are the only way.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Eric
>>>>>> Af6ep
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sent using SMTP.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Jul 17, 2018, at 6:42 PM, Mike Diehl <diehl.mike.a@?????.???>
wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Disagree. There are online services that are just as, if not more,
secure as
>>>>>> your medical information or where you spend your money. Going to print
>>>>>> with anything takes a lot more work than simply providing some
options to a
>>>>>> voting service. Then there?s postage. Online is also more convenient,
you can
>>>>>> pretty much do it anytime, anywhere you want. Think of it like LOTW for
>>>>>> QSLs, saves a ton in paper, postage and trips to the post.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Last but not least is I don?t see a real threat of people ?hacking?
the
>>>>>> elections for jobs that don?t pay and are full of criticism.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 73,
>>>>>>> Mike Diehl
>>>>>>> W8LID
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Jul 17, 2018, at 19:44, Eric Fort
<eric.fort.listmail@??????????????.???>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Let?s not get into electronic voting. Too much opportunity to ?hack
the
>>>>>> vote?. It?s unfortunate that an error was made and not caught prior
to
>>>>>> printing and mailing but electronic voting is not the answer.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Eric
>>>>>>>> Af6ep
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Sent using SMTP.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Jul 17, 2018, at 3:40 PM, Gabriel Zeifman
>>>>>> <gabrielzeifman@?????.???> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> How unfortunate that our cash strapped, technology oriented
>>>>>>>>> organization is having to waste so much money to print and mail two
>>>>>>>>> sets of paper ballots to each and every member. Seems to me that
>>>>>>>>> electronic voting would save the organization money, make voting
>>>>>>>>> more secure and efficient, prevent mishaps such as this, and prevent
>>>>>>>>> some members from not receiving ballots like last year.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 73,
>>>>>>>>> Gabe
>>>>>>>>> AL6D/VE6NJH
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jul 17, 2018, 2:33 PM Clayton Coleman W5PFG
>>>>>> <tasmac@?????.??> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Due to a printing error, the beige-colored ballots mailed to
>>>>>>>>>> AMSAT-NA members for the 2018 Board of Directors election on July
>>>>>>>>>> 15, 2018 have been declared void. Any of these voided ballots
>>>>>>>>>> received at the AMSAT-NA office will not be counted.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> New ballots, labeled ?CORRECTED BALLOT 7/20/2018? and printed on
>>>>>>>>>> yellow-colored cardstock will be mailed to all AMSAT-NA members.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Please vote for no more than three of the 2018 candidates:
>>>>>>>>>> Tom Clark, K3IO
>>>>>>>>>> Mark Hammond, N8MH
>>>>>>>>>> Scott Harvey, KA7FVV
>>>>>>>>>> Bruce Paige, KK5DO
>>>>>>>>>> Peter Portanova, W2JV
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The Directors positions will go to the three candidates receiving
>>>>>>>>>> the highest number of votes. In addition, there will be two
>>>>>>>>>> alternate members chosen, based on the next highest number of
>>>>>> votes received.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> 73,
>>>>>>>>>> Clayton
>>>>>>>>>> W5PFG
>>>>>>>>>> AMSAT-NA Corporate Secretary
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum
>>>>>>>>>> available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring
>>>>>>>>>> membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and
>>>>>>>>>> do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA.
>>>>>>>>>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
>>>>>> program!
>>>>>>>>>> Subscription settings:
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum
>>>>>>>>> available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring
>>>>>>>>> membership. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and
do
>>>>>> not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA.
>>>>>>>>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
>>>>>> program!
>>>>>>>>> Subscription settings:
>>>>>>>>> http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum
>>>>>> available
>>>>>>>> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
>>>>>>>> Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not
reflect the
>>>>>> official views of AMSAT-NA.
>>>>>>>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
>>>>>> program!
>>>>>>>> Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
>>>>>> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
Opinions
>>>>>> expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the
official views
>>>>>> of AMSAT-NA.
>>>>>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
>>>>>> program!
>>>>>> Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
>>>>> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
Opinions expressed
>>>>> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views
of AMSAT-NA.
>>>>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
program!
>>>>> Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>> _______________________________________________
>> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
>> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
Opinions expressed
>> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
AMSAT-NA.
>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
>> Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
------------------------------
Subject: Digest Footer
_______________________________________________
Sent via amsat-bb@?????.???.
AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide
without requiring membership. Opinions expressed
are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
AMSAT-NA.
Not an AMSAT member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
------------------------------
End of AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol 13, Issue 257
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