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CX2SA > SATDIG 09.09.19 21:02l 1139 Lines 46227 Bytes #999 (0) @ WW
BID : AMSATBB14324
Read: GUEST
Subj: AMSAT-BB-digest V14 324
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Sent: 190822/1727Z @:CX2SA.SAL.URY.SOAM #:12486 [Salto] FBB7.00e $:AMSATBB14324
From: CX2SA@CX2SA.SAL.URY.SOAM
To : SATDIG@WW
Today's Topics:
1. Re: apparent bogus email (Frank Karnauskas)
2. Re: Update: Rent GEO bandwidth for US (JoAnne K9JKM)
3. Re: Update: Rent GEO bandwidth for US (Michelle Thompson)
4. Re: Update: Rent GEO bandwidth for US (Joe)
5. Re: Update: Rent GEO bandwidth for US (Frank Karnauskas)
6. Re: Update: Rent GEO bandwidth for US (David Swanson)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2019 10:27:52 -0500
From: "Frank Karnauskas" <n1uw@???????.???>
To: <amsat-bb@?????.???>
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] apparent bogus email
Message-ID: <005f01d558fe$2a114510$7e33cf30$@???????.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I never got it. I never get spam from the BB. That email obviously
came from somewhere else.
Cheers,
Frank
FRANK KARNAUSKAS, N1UW
-----Original Message-----
From: AMSAT-BB [mailto:amsat-bb-bounces@?????.???? On Behalf Of Jeff
Johns via AMSAT-BB
Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2019 4:53 PM
To: amsat-bb@?????.???
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] apparent bogus email
I never get any spam here and am appreciative of the AMSAT remailer.
Jeff WE4B
> On Aug 21, 2019, at 4:47 PM, Glenn Little WB4UIV via AMSAT-BB
<amsat-bb@?????.???> wrote:
>
> This is the reason that I quit using the AMSAT remailer.
> With spam running from bad to worst, the SA, at the time, refused to
do anything to curtail?? the spam. Reason was to get all traffic to
the end user without screening any.
>
> 73
> Glenn
> WB4UIV
>
>> On 8/21/2019 1:26 PM, n4csitwo--- via AMSAT-BB wrote:
>> All,
>> Please be aware of some apparent bogus email that you may receive
to your amsat.org email address. An email just popped into my inbox
from "amsat.org Admin." saying I have 4 pending messages ...
>> At the bottom of the email it has ...
>> Copyright ?? 2019 amsat.org, Inc. All rights reserved. We are
located at 2233 S. third St., San Jose, CA 95123.
>>
>> I suggest you avoid opening this if you get one.
>>
>> Dave, AA4KN
>>
>> ---
>> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus
software.
>> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>> _______________________________________________
>> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum
available
>> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
Opinions expressed
>> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official
views of AMSAT-NA.
>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
program!
>> Subscription settings:
https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>>
>
> --
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
-
> Glenn Little ARRL Technical Specialist QCWA LM
28417
> Amateur Callsign: WB4UIV wb4uiv@????.??? AMSAT LM
2178
> QTH: Goose Creek, SC USA (EM92xx) USSVI LM NRA LM SBE ARRL
TAPR
> "It is not the class of license that the Amateur holds but the class
> of the Amateur that holds the license"
>
> _______________________________________________
> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum
available
> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
Opinions expressed
> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official
views of AMSAT-NA.
> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
program!
> Subscription settings:
https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
_______________________________________________
Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
Opinions expressed
are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views
of AMSAT-NA.
Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
program!
Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2019 10:36:35 -0500
From: "JoAnne K9JKM" <joanne.k9jkm@?????.???>
To: "'AMSAT-BB'" <amsat-bb@?????.???>
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Update: Rent GEO bandwidth for US
Message-ID: <5d5eb683.1c69fb81.f4667.272b@??.??????.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> Grrrr..
> Replies to the list via email with pictures attached get wiped !
> We need a modern BB or forum like AMSAT-DL....
A large number of members have previously said they prefer a plain e-mail
list without the overhead of huge files with JPG attachments or needing to
figure out how to navigate yet another forum layout. The amsat-bb has 2425
e-mail addresses on the subscriber list.
Other AMSAT internet venues which allow posting photos include:
AMSAT on Facebook with 3149 group members who can post photos (and 5233
likes of the page).
AMSAT on Twitter has ~14,600 followers.
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2019 08:43:13 -0700
From: Michelle Thompson <mountain.michelle@?????.???>
To: David Swanson <dave@?????????????.???>
Cc: "<,amsat-bb@?????.???????? <amsat-bb@?????.???>
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Update: Rent GEO bandwidth for US
Message-ID:
<CACvjz2UsJpBg6bObohH9tuHHenCwNsRvqgBLO37o_TCtgDJUJg@????.?????.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
The idea originally came from FEMA and ARRL. It has been presented at
Symposium at least twice.
As a former EMT, I have used a variety emergency communications equipment
for drills and duty. I got all the ICS certifications and listened to lots
and lots of schemes, proposals, and marketing from all the usual suspects,
went to classes for CEUs where strange things were recommended that would
never work, and did things that were essentially hacks with equipment that
should have been retired before I was born. My views on emcomm are
conservative and largely immaterial. If FEMA is interested in this, then
finding out if it works is worth my time.
No AMSAT resources (e.g. money) are being asked for or are needed for this.
It can only help AMSAT if it works, but if it doesn't, there's no harm done
to the club. We're supposed to experiment and advance the radio arts. We
need to understand what it means to rent transponder space.
When companies that are motivated to support amateur radio step up and do,
the least we can do is listen, weigh, consider, and take them up on it if
it looks like it would result in something positive. I believe this is one
of those opportunities, and I'm willing to do the due diligence and see how
far we can get.
In short, It is both/and, not either/or.
-Michelle W5NYV
On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 8:22 AM David Swanson via AMSAT-BB <
amsat-bb@?????.???> wrote:
> The 'last mile' segment in this proposal is amateur spectrum yes, but that
> segment could also very easily be commercial or public safety spectrum as
> well. Heck, with a meg of bandwidth at 10g+ on your 'backbone' you could
> very easily establish a somewhat respectable packet link and then just have
> your "Aggregator" be nothing more than a wifi hotspot, which opens up all
> sorts of communication applications beyond simple push button HTs. If
> you're truly looking at this from an EMCOMM perspective, then the primary
> goal of the ESF-2 annex is 'communications infrastructure restoration' -
> which is ranked higher than 'tactical communications' anyway. Why screw
> with sending people with their HT's out to act as relays, when a pelican
> case with a dish and a Linksys can get everyone back on the net in 5
> minutes?
>
> Therefore, I'm confused on why this is being brought up here other than
> solicitation by folks who wear multiple hats. There is precisely zero
> benefit to AMSAT or ARRL getting involved, and committing their scarce
> resources to a project that won't benefit amateurs. No contact made thru
> this proposed method will be a valid 'qso' for folks interested in that
> sort of thing. No expertise or engineering will be required of the 'users'
> of the system, other than to tune their device to whatever frequency the
> Aggregator builders require of them. The only folks that would benefit from
> such a proposal are the aggregator builders themselves, and possibly the
> public - and I say possibly because commercial systems like your proposal
> already exist and are in common use by organizations that respond to
> disasters. For 60 bucks a week I can rent a basic Inmarsat turn key
> solution, take it anywhere on the planet, and let any of the workers I'm
> supporting send and receive emails while I do something productive towards
> saving lives instead of mashing my PTT button 23 hours a day.
>
> The idea is cool, but only from the perspective of the people getting to
> build it. For those us who've actually been in the shit trying to help
> re-establish comms after a real disaster, we've all learned once the cell
> phones and internet comes back online, no one gives a crap about our
> radios. The moment the Verizon truck rolls up with the 3m dish and portable
> tower trailer, our work is done. The *real* use for Ham in disasters these
> days is the basic idea that our gear can establish communications without
> some sort of proprietary middle-hardware needed. Don't believe me? I'd be
> happy to send you my graduate research paper on DPEM Applications of
> Geo-Synchronous Satellites I did a few years back. There are applications
> for our hobby in disasters, find some spectrum to rent on a Geo-bird that I
> (or some ham in the mountains of western Puerto Rico) can use directly and
> I'll be the first one to donate. Until then, for 24k a year AMSAT could
> probably launch another pair of Fox's that would be *actual* amateur
> satellites.
>
> -Dave, KG5CCI
>
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 8:13 AM KC9SGV via AMSAT-BB <amsat-bb@?????.???>
> wrote:
>
> > Grrrr..
> > Replies to the list via email with pictures attached get wiped !
> > We need a modern BB or forum like AMSAT-DL....
> >
> > Here goes to the BB list again without pictures:
> >
> > We could go RF HF or VHF into the aggregator like we do into Echolink
> > nodes.
> > The aggregator then send the signal via commercial RF into the satellite.
> > Of course, this signal will be degraded by HF multi path and VHF distance
> > constraints.
> > Still an Emcomm use here.
> >
> > Or, we could forego the Emcomm utility, use the Internet, and go into the
> > aggregator via Echolink audio (computer to computer) or even use Skype,
> > like in the early days of remote HF station use.
> > Of course we could also use the gold standard audio of the free RCForb
> > remote HF station software as found on www.remotehams.com
> > A R&D use here.
> >
> > KC9SGV
> > Sent from my iPad
> >
> > > On Aug 22, 2019, at 7:01 AM, KC9SGV <kc9sgv@?????.???> wrote:
> > >
> > > We could go RF HF or VHF into the aggregator like we do into Echolink
> > nodes.
> > > The aggregator then send the signal via commercial RF into the
> satellite.
> > > Of course, this signal will be degraded by HF multi path and VHF
> > distance constraints.
> > > Still an Emcomm use here.
> > >
> > > Or, we could forego the Emcomm utility, use the Internet, and go into
> > the aggregator via Echolink audio (computer to computer) or even use
> Skype,
> > like in the early days of remote HF station use.
> > > Of course we could also use the gold standard audio of the free RCForb
> > remote HF station software as found on www.remotehams.com
> > > A R&D use here.
> > > Like this :
> > > <image1.PNG>
> > >
> > >
> > > Bernard,
> > > KC9SGV
> > >
> > > Sent from my iPad
> > >
> > >> On Aug 22, 2019, at 6:25 AM, John Kludt via AMSAT-BB <
> > amsat-bb@?????.???> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Ev,
> > >>
> > >> But the aggregator can't uplink directly to the satellite as the
> uplink
> > is outside of the amateur bands. So the aggregator must send everything
> to
> > an earth station with a commercial license, correct?
> > >>
> > >> Would the aggregator be single channel or work more like a linear
> > transponder sending along multiple signals in mixed modes at once?
> > >>
> > >> Unless I am wrong, the aggregator must be colocated with the
> commercial
> > earth station or we are back into Internet required land thereby
> decreasing
> > the encomm utility of this effort.
> > >>
> > >> Sancho
> > >>
> > >> Sent from my Verizon Motorola Smartphone
> > >>> On Aug 21, 2019 22:34, Ev Tupis via AMSAT-BB <amsat-bb@?????.???>
> > wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> Hi Michelle,
> > >>> What a fascinating opportunity. I'd like to try to describe this
> > using different words to see if I get it.
> > >>> Echostar 9 is a geosynchronous satellite with 1 MHz of spectrum to
> > sell.
> > >>> Both the up and down frequencies are outside of the amateur bands.
> > >>> To use it, an aggregator is needed. An aggregator is a "bridge"
> > device that converts amateur-band RF to satellite uplink RF and setellite
> > downlink RF to amateur-band RF.
> > >>> Amateurs simply need to be in range of an aggregator. It is the
> > aggregators responsibility to remain aimed at the satellite.
> > >>>
> > >>> The aggregator determines if it will bridge FM or Linear (SSB, CW,
> > PSK31, etc.) modes.
> > >>> Is this right?
> > >>> Regards,Ev, W2EV
> > >>>
> > >>> On Wednesday, August 21, 2019, 9:38:12 PM EDT, Michelle Thompson
> > via AMSAT-BB <amsat-bb@?????.???> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> An arrangement on Echostar9 for 1MHz of bandwidth for up to 4 years
> of
> > >>> USA+Mexico+Canada coverage is on offer for $2000 a month.
> > >>>
> > >>> I'm putting together a grant proposal for ARRL, FEMA, and others to
> > pay for
> > >>> at least year of access. I've gotten some positive feedback already.
> I
> > >>> think we can make this happen with some fundraising effort. I'm
> > willing to
> > >>> provide the human resources and whatever incidental financing needs
> to
> > >>> happen to secure a grant for rental.
> > >>>
> > >>> The main purpose of this type of system would be to enable field
> > deployment
> > >>> of "legacy mode" aggregators, like the Phase 4 Ground ARAP (Amateur
> > Radio
> > >>> Access Point). This is where traffic on any ham band, using FM or
> > analog
> > >>> gear, is digitized by a local "collecting" repeater, and is then sent
> > to a
> > >>> satellite from that repeater. FEMA and ARRL have expressed a lot of
> > >>> interest and support for this in the past. Phase 4 Ground needs an
> > ARAP in
> > >>> order to support legacy radios.
> > >>>
> > >>> You don't have to personally have a microwave digital uplink. The
> > >>> aggregator equipment does that part for you.
> > >>>
> > >>> This is most useful for public service and emergency communications.
> A
> > >>> communications emergency is declared, someone (FEMA, Red Cross,
> > motivated
> > >>> ham volunteer) drops in the aggregator, and all ham traffic it hears
> is
> > >>> sent to the satellite and then transmitted to the entire footprint.
> > >>>
> > >>> The downlink is 12-14GHz. This is not 10GHz, but is receivable by
> > >>> individuals using very inexpensive gear. Traffic can be repeated over
> > the
> > >>> internet.
> > >>>
> > >>> What does this get us?
> > >>>
> > >>> An opportunity to do all the R&D for the aggregator and get some
> > experience
> > >>> with uplinks.
> > >>>
> > >>> What do we not have?
> > >>>
> > >>> A true ham band downlink. You can still receive the downlink
> yourself,
> > or
> > >>> you can get it over the internet from an earth station distributor.
> > >>>
> > >>> That's where we're at with *this* proposal.
> > >>>
> > >>> I think it's worth it to provide a US-based way to design, deploy,
> > test,
> > >>> and use real world aggregator equipment. We learn a lot about GEO
> > comms and
> > >>> figure out a lot of the ins and outs.
> > >>>
> > >>> Comment and critique welcome and encouraged.
> > >>>
> > >>> More soon!
> > >>> -Michelle W5NYV
> > >>> _______________________________________________
> > >>> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum
> available
> > >>> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
> > Opinions expressed
> > >>> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views
> > of AMSAT-NA.
> > >>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
> > program!
> > >>> Subscription settings:
> https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
> > >>>
> > >>> _______________________________________________
> > >>> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum
> available
> > >>> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
> > Opinions expressed
> > >>> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views
> > of AMSAT-NA.
> > >>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
> > program!
> > >>> Subscription settings:
> https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
> > >> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
> > Opinions expressed
> > >> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views
> > of AMSAT-NA.
> > >> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
> > program!
> > >> Subscription settings:
> https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
> > _______________________________________________
> > Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
> > to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
> Opinions
> > expressed
> > are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
> > AMSAT-NA.
> > Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
> program!
> > Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions
> expressed
> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
> AMSAT-NA.
> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
> Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2019 10:44:30 -0500
From: Joe <nss@???.???>
To: peter@??????.???? "Peter Goodhall (2M0SQL)"
<peter@????????.??.??>, Michelle Thompson
<mountain.michelle@?????.???>
Cc: AMSAT BB <amsat-bb@?????.???>
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Update: Rent GEO bandwidth for US
Message-ID: <49c9406f-07e3-27b6-3310-8fc1738f4483@???.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
There is that Geo bird over Africa.
I had the URL for a site that lets you listen to the whole bird passband.
When it first went up I listened to it a LOT and was amazed at all the
different modes and coverage.
But I can't find the URL anymore. I was gonna go and listen to see what
the activity level is now like since it is much older and the newness
has worn off.
Joe WB9SBD
Sig
The Original Rolling Ball Clock
Idle Tyme
Idle-Tyme.com
http://www.idle-tyme.com
On 8/22/2019 10:04 AM, Peter Goodhall (2M0SQL) via AMSAT-BB wrote:
> Hi Michelle,
>
> Excellent that they came back with the price and while the project
> sounds potentially interesting it's of course, not an amateur radio
> satellite, has anyone considered any risks for example, does this have
> the potential to raise questions when AMSAT approaches gov/orgs for
> discount launches for satellites we build that they might say that we
> could just go rent some transponder space.
>
> I know in the states disaster comms is a huge point (weirdly not
> something that's pushed in Europe), but agencies could already access
> this kind of technology just by purchasing sat phones, for example, I
> have an iridium unit that lets me make calls and access the internet
> although slowly but handy in highlands of Scotland with poor mobile
> coverage.
>
> By the sounds of this, it will be access points that then aggregate
> into a central point via probably internet backhaul then its dumped up
> to the satellite, to me that doesn't really feel within the ham
> spirit, although I'm sure tons would argue :)
>
> I know there's a big desire for GEO over North America, but do ops
> really think this is the ultimate solution? we're talking 96000 USD
> over 4 years.
>
> Think it really requires some heavy thought before just jumping on the idea.
>
> Just my thoughts, and I know I'm on the other side of the pond in the
> QO-100 footprint.
>
> Peter, 2M0SQL
>
> On Thu, 22 Aug 2019 at 02:36, Michelle Thompson via AMSAT-BB
> <amsat-bb@?????.???> wrote:
>> An arrangement on Echostar9 for 1MHz of bandwidth for up to 4 years of
>> USA+Mexico+Canada coverage is on offer for $2000 a month.
>>
>> I'm putting together a grant proposal for ARRL, FEMA, and others to pay for
>> at least year of access. I've gotten some positive feedback already. I
>> think we can make this happen with some fundraising effort. I'm willing to
>> provide the human resources and whatever incidental financing needs to
>> happen to secure a grant for rental.
>>
>> The main purpose of this type of system would be to enable field deployment
>> of "legacy mode" aggregators, like the Phase 4 Ground ARAP (Amateur Radio
>> Access Point). This is where traffic on any ham band, using FM or analog
>> gear, is digitized by a local "collecting" repeater, and is then sent to a
>> satellite from that repeater. FEMA and ARRL have expressed a lot of
>> interest and support for this in the past. Phase 4 Ground needs an ARAP in
>> order to support legacy radios.
>>
>> You don't have to personally have a microwave digital uplink. The
>> aggregator equipment does that part for you.
>>
>> This is most useful for public service and emergency communications. A
>> communications emergency is declared, someone (FEMA, Red Cross, motivated
>> ham volunteer) drops in the aggregator, and all ham traffic it hears is
>> sent to the satellite and then transmitted to the entire footprint.
>>
>> The downlink is 12-14GHz. This is not 10GHz, but is receivable by
>> individuals using very inexpensive gear. Traffic can be repeated over the
>> internet.
>>
>> What does this get us?
>>
>> An opportunity to do all the R&D for the aggregator and get some experience
>> with uplinks.
>>
>> What do we not have?
>>
>> A true ham band downlink. You can still receive the downlink yourself, or
>> you can get it over the internet from an earth station distributor.
>>
>> That's where we're at with *this* proposal.
>>
>> I think it's worth it to provide a US-based way to design, deploy, test,
>> and use real world aggregator equipment. We learn a lot about GEO comms and
>> figure out a lot of the ins and outs.
>>
>> Comment and critique welcome and encouraged.
>>
>> More soon!
>> -Michelle W5NYV
>> _______________________________________________
>> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
>> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
Opinions expressed
>> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
AMSAT-NA.
>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
>> Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
> _______________________________________________
> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions
expressed
> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
AMSAT-NA.
> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
> Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>
>
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2019 10:58:21 -0500
From: "Frank Karnauskas" <n1uw@???????.???>
To: <amsat-bb@?????.???>
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Update: Rent GEO bandwidth for US
Message-ID: <007301d55902$6c63e3b0$452bab10$@???????.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Before anyone writes a check for a rented transponder, please consider
sending your check to help keep the ARISS Outreach for Students program
funded.
A total of $150,000 is needed to replace and upgrade the aging equipment on
the ISS. After eight months, the amateur radio community has contributed
only $33,000 of which $6,500 came from AMSAT-UK and another $6,000 came from
AMSAT officers.
Pleases see
https://fundrazr.com/arissnextgen
Thank you for your consideration.
Cheers,
Frank
FRANK KARNAUSKAS, N1UW
-----Original Message-----
From: AMSAT-BB [mailto:amsat-bb-bounces@?????.???? On Behalf Of Mike Diehl
via AMSAT-BB
Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2019 10:27 AM
To: peter@??????.???? Peter Goodhall (2M0SQL)
Cc: AMSAT BB
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Update: Rent GEO bandwidth for US
I had similar thoughts as well, Peter. I would also like to point out that
we are always at risk of losing our spectrum to commercial interests because
we?re not using it. It seems counterproductive to turn around and rent
bandwidth on commercial bands further justifying their need to take our bands.
73,
Mike Diehl
W8LID/VE6LID
> On Aug 22, 2019, at 11:12, Peter Goodhall (2M0SQL) via AMSAT-BB
<amsat-bb@?????.???> wrote:
>
> ?Hi Michelle,
>
> Excellent that they came back with the price and while the project
> sounds potentially interesting it's of course, not an amateur radio
> satellite, has anyone considered any risks for example, does this have
> the potential to raise questions when AMSAT approaches gov/orgs for
> discount launches for satellites we build that they might say that we
> could just go rent some transponder space.
>
> I know in the states disaster comms is a huge point (weirdly not
> something that's pushed in Europe), but agencies could already access
> this kind of technology just by purchasing sat phones, for example, I
> have an iridium unit that lets me make calls and access the internet
> although slowly but handy in highlands of Scotland with poor mobile
> coverage.
>
> By the sounds of this, it will be access points that then aggregate
> into a central point via probably internet backhaul then its dumped up
> to the satellite, to me that doesn't really feel within the ham
> spirit, although I'm sure tons would argue :)
>
> I know there's a big desire for GEO over North America, but do ops
> really think this is the ultimate solution? we're talking 96000 USD
> over 4 years.
>
> Think it really requires some heavy thought before just jumping on the idea.
>
> Just my thoughts, and I know I'm on the other side of the pond in the
> QO-100 footprint.
>
> Peter, 2M0SQL
>
>> On Thu, 22 Aug 2019 at 02:36, Michelle Thompson via AMSAT-BB
>> <amsat-bb@?????.???> wrote:
>>
>> An arrangement on Echostar9 for 1MHz of bandwidth for up to 4 years of
>> USA+Mexico+Canada coverage is on offer for $2000 a month.
>>
>> I'm putting together a grant proposal for ARRL, FEMA, and others to pay for
>> at least year of access. I've gotten some positive feedback already. I
>> think we can make this happen with some fundraising effort. I'm willing to
>> provide the human resources and whatever incidental financing needs to
>> happen to secure a grant for rental.
>>
>> The main purpose of this type of system would be to enable field deployment
>> of "legacy mode" aggregators, like the Phase 4 Ground ARAP (Amateur Radio
>> Access Point). This is where traffic on any ham band, using FM or analog
>> gear, is digitized by a local "collecting" repeater, and is then sent to a
>> satellite from that repeater. FEMA and ARRL have expressed a lot of
>> interest and support for this in the past. Phase 4 Ground needs an ARAP in
>> order to support legacy radios.
>>
>> You don't have to personally have a microwave digital uplink. The
>> aggregator equipment does that part for you.
>>
>> This is most useful for public service and emergency communications. A
>> communications emergency is declared, someone (FEMA, Red Cross, motivated
>> ham volunteer) drops in the aggregator, and all ham traffic it hears is
>> sent to the satellite and then transmitted to the entire footprint.
>>
>> The downlink is 12-14GHz. This is not 10GHz, but is receivable by
>> individuals using very inexpensive gear. Traffic can be repeated over the
>> internet.
>>
>> What does this get us?
>>
>> An opportunity to do all the R&D for the aggregator and get some experience
>> with uplinks.
>>
>> What do we not have?
>>
>> A true ham band downlink. You can still receive the downlink yourself, or
>> you can get it over the internet from an earth station distributor.
>>
>> That's where we're at with *this* proposal.
>>
>> I think it's worth it to provide a US-based way to design, deploy, test,
>> and use real world aggregator equipment. We learn a lot about GEO comms and
>> figure out a lot of the ins and outs.
>>
>> Comment and critique welcome and encouraged.
>>
>> More soon!
>> -Michelle W5NYV
>> _______________________________________________
>> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
>> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
Opinions expressed
>> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
AMSAT-NA.
>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
>> Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
> _______________________________________________
> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions
expressed
> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
AMSAT-NA.
> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
> Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
_______________________________________________
Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions
expressed
are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
AMSAT-NA.
Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2019 11:12:03 -0500
From: David Swanson <dave@?????????????.???>
Cc: "<,amsat-bb@?????.???????? <amsat-bb@?????.???>
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Update: Rent GEO bandwidth for US
Message-ID:
<CANq+eyW__DKt3hPCHtWz4Ce=A3q4H2xpuPWKsy5PH_A=qO4mfw@????.?????.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
I would be interested to see these proposals from the ARRL for Amateurs
renting commercial Spectrum. I believe FEMA would have an interest as they
don't care about the source of their support, but I have a very hard time
believing the ARRL would support such a scheme for a number of reasons
others have already mentioned. Back to FEMA though, I've applied for
research grants thru the Dept. of Homeland Security Science and Technology
directorate, which is where you'll get referred to if you approach FEMA for
money. Based on my experience they would likely support such a proposal,
but since you're making this proposal as a citizen scientist and not a ham,
you're going to need to focus on making your last mile usable by everyone.
Please by all means continue to research and see where it leads however
this is not amateur radio, you're just playing with RF on your own accord.
If you want suggestions or some names on approaching DHS-ST Despite your
claim 'no amsat resources are being asked for' You have approached this
mailing list with a price and hype trying to convince folks this would be
our own QO-100 over North America when it is certainly not. Have
discussions, talk to folks, see if you can find some funding but be honest
about what you're pitching.
In short, this is playing around with electronics. It is probably
interesting to some folks on this list, but it is NOT Amateur Radio in any
way shape or form. Please stop trying to pass it off as such.
-Dave, KG5CCI
On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 10:43 AM Michelle Thompson <
mountain.michelle@?????.???> wrote:
> The idea originally came from FEMA and ARRL. It has been presented at
> Symposium at least twice.
>
> As a former EMT, I have used a variety emergency communications equipment
> for drills and duty. I got all the ICS certifications and listened to lots
> and lots of schemes, proposals, and marketing from all the usual suspects,
> went to classes for CEUs where strange things were recommended that would
> never work, and did things that were essentially hacks with equipment that
> should have been retired before I was born. My views on emcomm are
> conservative and largely immaterial. If FEMA is interested in this, then
> finding out if it works is worth my time.
>
> No AMSAT resources (e.g. money) are being asked for or are needed for
> this. It can only help AMSAT if it works, but if it doesn't, there's no
> harm done to the club. We're supposed to experiment and advance the radio
> arts. We need to understand what it means to rent transponder space.
>
> When companies that are motivated to support amateur radio step up and do,
> the least we can do is listen, weigh, consider, and take them up on it if
> it looks like it would result in something positive. I believe this is one
> of those opportunities, and I'm willing to do the due diligence and see how
> far we can get.
>
> In short, It is both/and, not either/or.
>
> -Michelle W5NYV
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 8:22 AM David Swanson via AMSAT-BB <
> amsat-bb@?????.???> wrote:
>
>> The 'last mile' segment in this proposal is amateur spectrum yes, but that
>> segment could also very easily be commercial or public safety spectrum as
>> well. Heck, with a meg of bandwidth at 10g+ on your 'backbone' you could
>> very easily establish a somewhat respectable packet link and then just
>> have
>> your "Aggregator" be nothing more than a wifi hotspot, which opens up all
>> sorts of communication applications beyond simple push button HTs. If
>> you're truly looking at this from an EMCOMM perspective, then the primary
>> goal of the ESF-2 annex is 'communications infrastructure restoration' -
>> which is ranked higher than 'tactical communications' anyway. Why screw
>> with sending people with their HT's out to act as relays, when a pelican
>> case with a dish and a Linksys can get everyone back on the net in 5
>> minutes?
>>
>> Therefore, I'm confused on why this is being brought up here other than
>> solicitation by folks who wear multiple hats. There is precisely zero
>> benefit to AMSAT or ARRL getting involved, and committing their scarce
>> resources to a project that won't benefit amateurs. No contact made thru
>> this proposed method will be a valid 'qso' for folks interested in that
>> sort of thing. No expertise or engineering will be required of the 'users'
>> of the system, other than to tune their device to whatever frequency the
>> Aggregator builders require of them. The only folks that would benefit
>> from
>> such a proposal are the aggregator builders themselves, and possibly the
>> public - and I say possibly because commercial systems like your proposal
>> already exist and are in common use by organizations that respond to
>> disasters. For 60 bucks a week I can rent a basic Inmarsat turn key
>> solution, take it anywhere on the planet, and let any of the workers I'm
>> supporting send and receive emails while I do something productive towards
>> saving lives instead of mashing my PTT button 23 hours a day.
>>
>> The idea is cool, but only from the perspective of the people getting to
>> build it. For those us who've actually been in the shit trying to help
>> re-establish comms after a real disaster, we've all learned once the cell
>> phones and internet comes back online, no one gives a crap about our
>> radios. The moment the Verizon truck rolls up with the 3m dish and
>> portable
>> tower trailer, our work is done. The *real* use for Ham in disasters these
>> days is the basic idea that our gear can establish communications without
>> some sort of proprietary middle-hardware needed. Don't believe me? I'd be
>> happy to send you my graduate research paper on DPEM Applications of
>> Geo-Synchronous Satellites I did a few years back. There are applications
>> for our hobby in disasters, find some spectrum to rent on a Geo-bird that
>> I
>> (or some ham in the mountains of western Puerto Rico) can use directly and
>> I'll be the first one to donate. Until then, for 24k a year AMSAT could
>> probably launch another pair of Fox's that would be *actual* amateur
>> satellites.
>>
>> -Dave, KG5CCI
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 8:13 AM KC9SGV via AMSAT-BB <amsat-bb@?????.???>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > Grrrr..
>> > Replies to the list via email with pictures attached get wiped !
>> > We need a modern BB or forum like AMSAT-DL....
>> >
>> > Here goes to the BB list again without pictures:
>> >
>> > We could go RF HF or VHF into the aggregator like we do into Echolink
>> > nodes.
>> > The aggregator then send the signal via commercial RF into the
>> satellite.
>> > Of course, this signal will be degraded by HF multi path and VHF
>> distance
>> > constraints.
>> > Still an Emcomm use here.
>> >
>> > Or, we could forego the Emcomm utility, use the Internet, and go into
>> the
>> > aggregator via Echolink audio (computer to computer) or even use Skype,
>> > like in the early days of remote HF station use.
>> > Of course we could also use the gold standard audio of the free RCForb
>> > remote HF station software as found on www.remotehams.com
>> > A R&D use here.
>> >
>> > KC9SGV
>> > Sent from my iPad
>> >
>> > > On Aug 22, 2019, at 7:01 AM, KC9SGV <kc9sgv@?????.???> wrote:
>> > >
>> > > We could go RF HF or VHF into the aggregator like we do into Echolink
>> > nodes.
>> > > The aggregator then send the signal via commercial RF into the
>> satellite.
>> > > Of course, this signal will be degraded by HF multi path and VHF
>> > distance constraints.
>> > > Still an Emcomm use here.
>> > >
>> > > Or, we could forego the Emcomm utility, use the Internet, and go into
>> > the aggregator via Echolink audio (computer to computer) or even use
>> Skype,
>> > like in the early days of remote HF station use.
>> > > Of course we could also use the gold standard audio of the free RCForb
>> > remote HF station software as found on www.remotehams.com
>> > > A R&D use here.
>> > > Like this :
>> > > <image1.PNG>
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Bernard,
>> > > KC9SGV
>> > >
>> > > Sent from my iPad
>> > >
>> > >> On Aug 22, 2019, at 6:25 AM, John Kludt via AMSAT-BB <
>> > amsat-bb@?????.???> wrote:
>> > >>
>> > >> Ev,
>> > >>
>> > >> But the aggregator can't uplink directly to the satellite as the
>> uplink
>> > is outside of the amateur bands. So the aggregator must send
>> everything to
>> > an earth station with a commercial license, correct?
>> > >>
>> > >> Would the aggregator be single channel or work more like a linear
>> > transponder sending along multiple signals in mixed modes at once?
>> > >>
>> > >> Unless I am wrong, the aggregator must be colocated with the
>> commercial
>> > earth station or we are back into Internet required land thereby
>> decreasing
>> > the encomm utility of this effort.
>> > >>
>> > >> Sancho
>> > >>
>> > >> Sent from my Verizon Motorola Smartphone
>> > >>> On Aug 21, 2019 22:34, Ev Tupis via AMSAT-BB <amsat-bb@?????.???>
>> > wrote:
>> > >>>
>> > >>> Hi Michelle,
>> > >>> What a fascinating opportunity. I'd like to try to describe this
>> > using different words to see if I get it.
>> > >>> Echostar 9 is a geosynchronous satellite with 1 MHz of spectrum to
>> > sell.
>> > >>> Both the up and down frequencies are outside of the amateur bands.
>> > >>> To use it, an aggregator is needed. An aggregator is a "bridge"
>> > device that converts amateur-band RF to satellite uplink RF and
>> setellite
>> > downlink RF to amateur-band RF.
>> > >>> Amateurs simply need to be in range of an aggregator. It is the
>> > aggregators responsibility to remain aimed at the satellite.
>> > >>>
>> > >>> The aggregator determines if it will bridge FM or Linear (SSB, CW,
>> > PSK31, etc.) modes.
>> > >>> Is this right?
>> > >>> Regards,Ev, W2EV
>> > >>>
>> > >>> On Wednesday, August 21, 2019, 9:38:12 PM EDT, Michelle Thompson
>> > via AMSAT-BB <amsat-bb@?????.???> wrote:
>> > >>>
>> > >>> An arrangement on Echostar9 for 1MHz of bandwidth for up to 4 years
>> of
>> > >>> USA+Mexico+Canada coverage is on offer for $2000 a month.
>> > >>>
>> > >>> I'm putting together a grant proposal for ARRL, FEMA, and others to
>> > pay for
>> > >>> at least year of access. I've gotten some positive feedback
>> already. I
>> > >>> think we can make this happen with some fundraising effort. I'm
>> > willing to
>> > >>> provide the human resources and whatever incidental financing needs
>> to
>> > >>> happen to secure a grant for rental.
>> > >>>
>> > >>> The main purpose of this type of system would be to enable field
>> > deployment
>> > >>> of "legacy mode" aggregators, like the Phase 4 Ground ARAP (Amateur
>> > Radio
>> > >>> Access Point). This is where traffic on any ham band, using FM or
>> > analog
>> > >>> gear, is digitized by a local "collecting" repeater, and is then
>> sent
>> > to a
>> > >>> satellite from that repeater. FEMA and ARRL have expressed a lot of
>> > >>> interest and support for this in the past. Phase 4 Ground needs an
>> > ARAP in
>> > >>> order to support legacy radios.
>> > >>>
>> > >>> You don't have to personally have a microwave digital uplink. The
>> > >>> aggregator equipment does that part for you.
>> > >>>
>> > >>> This is most useful for public service and emergency
>> communications. A
>> > >>> communications emergency is declared, someone (FEMA, Red Cross,
>> > motivated
>> > >>> ham volunteer) drops in the aggregator, and all ham traffic it
>> hears is
>> > >>> sent to the satellite and then transmitted to the entire footprint.
>> > >>>
>> > >>> The downlink is 12-14GHz. This is not 10GHz, but is receivable by
>> > >>> individuals using very inexpensive gear. Traffic can be repeated
>> over
>> > the
>> > >>> internet.
>> > >>>
>> > >>> What does this get us?
>> > >>>
>> > >>> An opportunity to do all the R&D for the aggregator and get some
>> > experience
>> > >>> with uplinks.
>> > >>>
>> > >>> What do we not have?
>> > >>>
>> > >>> A true ham band downlink. You can still receive the downlink
>> yourself,
>> > or
>> > >>> you can get it over the internet from an earth station distributor.
>> > >>>
>> > >>> That's where we're at with *this* proposal.
>> > >>>
>> > >>> I think it's worth it to provide a US-based way to design, deploy,
>> > test,
>> > >>> and use real world aggregator equipment. We learn a lot about GEO
>> > comms and
>> > >>> figure out a lot of the ins and outs.
>> > >>>
>> > >>> Comment and critique welcome and encouraged.
>> > >>>
>> > >>> More soon!
>> > >>> -Michelle W5NYV
>> > >>> _______________________________________________
>> > >>> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum
>> available
>> > >>> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
>> > Opinions expressed
>> > >>> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official
>> views
>> > of AMSAT-NA.
>> > >>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
>> > program!
>> > >>> Subscription settings:
>> https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>> > >>>
>> > >>> _______________________________________________
>> > >>> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum
>> available
>> > >>> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
>> > Opinions expressed
>> > >>> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official
>> views
>> > of AMSAT-NA.
>> > >>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
>> > program!
>> > >>> Subscription settings:
>> https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>> > >> _______________________________________________
>> > >> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum
>> available
>> > >> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
>> > Opinions expressed
>> > >> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views
>> > of AMSAT-NA.
>> > >> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
>> > program!
>> > >> Subscription settings:
>> https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
>> > to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
>> Opinions
>> > expressed
>> > are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
>> > AMSAT-NA.
>> > Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
>> program!
>> > Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>> >
>> _______________________________________________
>> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
>> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
>> Opinions expressed
>> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
>> AMSAT-NA.
>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
>> Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>>
>
------------------------------
Subject: Digest Footer
_______________________________________________
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AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide
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AMSAT-NA.
Not an AMSAT member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
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------------------------------
End of AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol 14, Issue 324
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