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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Lower your power!!! (JamesDuffey)
2. Re: Lower your power!!! (Hasan al-Basri)
3. Re: Lower your power!!! (Bob Hammond)
4. email address (James Brown)
5. Re: Lower your power!!! (Devin L. Ganger)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 08:21:54 -0700
From: JamesDuffey <jamesduffey@???????.???>
To: Hasan al-Basri <hbasri.schiers6@?????.???>
Cc: AMSAT-BB <amsat-bb@?????.???>
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Lower your power!!!
Message-ID: <E62DD2C1-5A20-4866-910D-9046AB542CEA@???????.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Hasan-This is a good post. I would add a couple of small points:
1. Use full duplex. it is easier to tell how loud one is on full duplex and
if you are running so much power as to modulate the passband. I think it
good practice to use duplex all the time on the satellites, FM or linear,
but that is a topic for another time.
2. Use a gain antenna, like a Yagi. Even a two or three element Yagi will
help a lot to bring the satellite received signal and satellite noise floor
above your local noise floor. I think an antenna with the elements for both
bands all in a plane, like the cheap Yagis, the DK7ZB duoband antennas. or a
log periodic like the Elk is better than an antenna where the elements for
the two bands are orthogonal. Again, antennas are a topic for another time,
but they are the easiest and cheapest way to improve your signal. Some may
say only way.
3. If you are new to linear satellites, tell those who you contact you are
new to the linear satellites and ask how your signal compares to the beacon
or to other responsible ops.
4. If you are reluctant to tell someone they are running too much power or
don?t think you can do so tactfully, give reports relative to the beacon
strength and hope that the op who receives a report that their signal is
10dB over the beacon will take the hint and reduce their power. Best case,
they will ask what that means and why it is important.
5. Realize that the satellite passband is a shared resource. It is not
always easy to share. Recognize that and try to behave in the passband the
way that you would like others to behave in the passband. Although we tend
to think of sharing in terms of who gets the kindergarten and preschool
toys, or who gets the last piece of cake or pie, or who gets to ride
shotgun, it is more like the ?Tragedy of the Commons? that you learned about
in freshman econ. To refresh your memory read:
< https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons > and act accordingly.
6. If someone consistently runs too much power on the satellites, it is
often out of ignorance rather than malicious intent. Mentoring locals that
are operating with poor receive capability or poor antennas, and offering
help, can go a long ways towards helping reduce alligators. When someone
moves up from the FM birds and wants to improve their station, they are
often amazed that replacing that run of RG58 with LMR400 or even RG213 and
putting up a cheap Yagi makes a big difference. And if they operate duplex
they can hear the difference.
I hope this helps. The problem is an electro-psychological one, where
attitude is as important to the solution as is technology. Few of us readily
change our behavior without a wake up call. - Duffey
James Duffey KK6MC
Cedar Crest NM
> On Mar 7, 2020, at 04:23, Hasan al-Basri via AMSAT-BB <amsat-bb@?????.???>
wrote:
>
> ?Joe, (and other inexperienced sat operators). When I use the term 'you' in
> this post it is not to be taken personally. If the shoe fits...well, then
> yes, take it personally, otherwise just take it as a way to describe an
> operating guide.
>
> 1. Yes running too much EIRP aka Effective Radiated Power, (power plus
> antenna gain - feedline loss) ruins operations for other operators. It may
> also cause a malfunction of AO-7, to include FM'ing on SSB or shutting down
> the xponder entirely.
>
> AO-7 is a particularly sensitive case. So, let's set it to the side for the
> moment.
>
> On the other linear (SSB/CW) birds like CAS-4A, 4B, XW-2A, 2B, 2D (again),
> and 2F here are the issues:
>
> The downlink power (the sat's transmitter) is shared. It is shared in
> proportion to the strength of the uplink signal from each individual
> station. So, if a station is running *excessive EIRP,* they capture the
> vast majority of the available downlink power and everyone else's signal is
> driven into the noise floor. This happens at a syllabic rate on voices
> (heard by others running proper power levels as a pumping up and down of
> their signal at the speech rate of the offending signal). On cw, it is even
> worse, with each keyed character driving all the other signals into the
> noise floor at the keying rate.
>
> Saying, "I'm only running 5 watts" is NOT an acceptable answer. It also
> demonstrates that those saying it have no idea how to considerately operate
> on a satellite.
>
> *There is one simple rule: You should never be louder on the downlink than
> the strength of the CW beacon, period.*
>
> It is the ops responsibility to stay within this limit. No excuses, no
> explanations, just do it.
>
> Unfortunately, this pumping/power robbing happens frequently on all birds,
> because operators either:
>
> 1. Have no idea what they are doing....or
> 2. Don't care that they are ruining the operation for others.
>
> I have many hours of 15 minute pass MP4 recordings of these situations and
> have been tempted to publish them. I have resisted publishing them because
> so many of them seem to be the result of "innocent" mistakes.
>
> So, what is excessive EIRP and how do we avoid it? For simplicity's sake,
> I'm going to refer to EIRP as power.
>
> You should adjust your uplink power so that it *NEVER *exceeds the strength
> of the CW beacon you are hearing *AT THAT TIME*. Simply looking at the
> beacon once in an entire 15 minute pass does not reflect what is happening
> throughout the pass. The beacon reference needs to be repeatedly checked
> during the pass to see if you need to power down. It's a LOT easier to tell
> if you have enough power (you can hear yourself), but a lot harder to pay
> attention to the fact you are too loud.
>
> I cannot tell you how many times I have witnessed a QSO where one op tells
> the other, "*You have a great signal*"....yeah, 8 dB above the beacon,
> stealing the downlink power from the considerate operators who have kept
> their uplink power low enough to stay no stronger than the beacon. Yes,
> they are loud. But on this shared resource we call a satellite downlink
> passband, being an Alligator (big mouth, poor ears) is not something to be
> proud of, nor should we be complimenting operators for this lack of either
> 1) awareness; or 2) consideration, for the other operators.
>
> Also, you may sound weak because of poor receiver performance on your end,
> so you are tempted to turn up your transmit power to make up for your poor
> ears. *This is a constant problem on the birds as they are being used
> lately. *Many ops seem unaware of how poorly they are hearing and it has
> little or nothing to do with their bright and shiny new rig. :-)
>
> Someone else mentioned, that if you can't hear the beacon, don't
> transmit. *Truer
> words were never spoken*. If your rx performance is so bad that you cannot
> hear a signal that is easily 15 to 25 dB above the noise, then don't
> transmit, all you are going to do is power rob others.
>
> The truth is, all of the linear birds on mode B (2m downlink), have beacons
> that consistently run 15 to 25 dB above the noise floor. If you don't
> hear them that strong, fix your receiver setup. Add a preamp, use better
> coax, increase your receiver antenna gain. etc.
>
> Another simple test: do you hear passband noise from the satellite? When it
> comes into view, you should be able to hear a marked increase in your
> receive noise. At the peak of the pass you should be able to hear it
> easily. If you don't, your rx performance is poor. 9700 and SDR users will
> see a marked 'hump' shape of the passband if they are set to a wide
> panoramic view.
>
> Turning up your transmit power is not the solution and you will, indeed,
> ruin other people's qsos.
>
> In another post, I mentioned a simple and dirty way to tell if you have
> adequate receiver performance. It requires no test equipment.
>
> 1. Disconnect your antenna.
> 2. Connect a 50 ohm dummy load (a simple 47 Ohm resistor works fine) to the
> antenna input of your radio. You will not be transmitting.
> 3. If you can turn the agc off in your rx, do so. If not, set it to Fast.
> 4. Noise Blanker or Noise Reduction OFF
> 5. Now....turn up the volume so the noise coming out of the speaker is
> quite obvious, but not ear splitting.
>
> Remember how loud it sounds.
>
> 6. Quickly disconnect the resistor and replace it with your satellite
> antenna.
>
> Did the noise jump up considerably compared to the noise caused by the 50
> ohm resistor?
>
> If not, your rx performance is poor. You need to fix it, as above.
>
> If it did jump up, at least a bit, you are probably in a relatively quiet
> RF location for noise and that is really good...and the fact that you can
> hear environmental noise above your receiver's internally generated noise
> is very good.
>
> If it jumped up a very large amount, then your locally generated
> environmental noise is high, which is NOT good, because you will end up
> turning up your transmit power (uplink) to the birds to overcome it...and
> of course, the rest of the people using the satellite will be driven down
> into the noise floor, or power modulated by your speech rate or cw keying.
>
> So, what do we do about all of this?
>
> 1. Exercise some real care about your operating practices. Take time to
> learn how your station performance varies by the nature of a pass (shallow,
> moderate, very high) and during a pass ((current elevation and polarization
> fading).
>
> Using linear birds considerately requires skill and operator attentiveness.
> This is completely different than FM birds and is much more demanding of
> operator intervention.
>
> *Most importantly, during the pass itself check the beacon strength several
> times and adjust your uplink power such that your received signal does not
> exceed the strength of the CW beacon.*
>
> Those with the nice shiny new Icom 9700 have no excuse for ever being
> stronger than the beacon. They can simultaneously monitor the beacon level
> and their own signal (as well as others in the passband) with the
> panadapter feature of the 9700. Set your rx width on the panadaptor to +/-
> 25 kHz and center it so the PSK beacon is at the left edge of the display
> and the right edge is above the op of the satellite passband (and you will
> see the CW beacon just above (to the right) of the PSK beacon and the
> normal passband just above (further to the right) of the CW beacon). This
> should be on your display all the time. Then you can always see if you are
> too strong. It will be obvious.
>
> 2. If you have access to an SDR dongle like the FunCube Pro +, run software
> like SDR Console v3 (free). You will be able to see every signal in the
> passband in real time from the PSKBeacon to the CW Beacon to your signal
> and all the others.
>
> When you can see what poor operating practices do to the satellite passband
> and everyone trying use it, you will be amazed.
>
> Since more and more of the serious satellite ops are getting 9700s and
> SDRs, I find that the first thing I tell someone when I'm working them is
> how strong their signal is (in relative dBm) and how strong the beacon is
> (in relative dBm) . If they are exceeding he beacon, I ask them to reduce
> power. It's that simple.
>
> I'd really like to not have to:
>
> 1. Chase people all over the birds asking them to reduce their signal
> because they are 6 to 10 dB over the beacon and are "power modulating"
> every signal on the satellite.
>
> 2. Get on their freq and politely call them....only to have to chase them
> all over the passband because they can't hear themselves and they continue
> to transmit anyway.
>
> As the popularity of satellites, especially the linear birds, has
> increased, we are coming under more and more pressure to clean up our
> operating habits. These are NOT FM birds. *Getting on one freq and
> capturing the downlink with one signal with all the juice you can put out
> is not an acceptable operating technique on the linear birds*.
>
> It is inconsiderate and destructive.
>
> Hopefully, the directness of these explanations will help and not offend
> new satellite ops. It has gotten bad enough, that something needed to be
> said. We want all of you on the birds, just play nicely.
>
> 73, N0AN
> Hasan
>
>
>> On Fri, Mar 6, 2020 at 3:19 PM Joe KD2NFC via AMSAT-BB <amsat-bb@?????.???>
>> wrote:
>>
>> I was just on AO-7 and was told to lower my power from more then one
>> person. Sorry about that folks, just getting adjusted here, please be
>> patient with a satellite beginner.
>>
>> Now that we are here I was curious what a lot of power in does to the
>> linear birds, does it ruin the passband for others? Also how much is a good
>> amount of power to start with or one shouldn?t exceed?
>>
>> FM birds probably have similar operating rules as well right. I?m here to
>> learn :)
>>
>> Joe
>> KD2NFC
>>
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> _______________________________________________
>> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
>> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions
>> expressed
>> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
>> AMSAT-NA.
>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
>> Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions
expressed
> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
AMSAT-NA.
> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
> Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 09:30:55 -0600
From: Hasan al-Basri <hbasri.schiers6@?????.???>
To: JamesDuffey <jamesduffey@???????.???>
Cc: AMSAT-BB <amsat-bb@?????.???>
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Lower your power!!!
Message-ID:
<CAM4UQf3Crx9Bo5Vwwgp9iakWjyXdFVBj8St6huy6COSLt0ePcQ@????.?????.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Excellent follow up, James, just super.!
73, N0AN
Hasan
On Sat, Mar 7, 2020 at 9:22 AM JamesDuffey <jamesduffey@???????.???> wrote:
> Hasan-This is a good post. I would add a couple of small points:
>
> 1. Use full duplex. it is easier to tell how loud one is on full duplex
> and if you are running so much power as to modulate the passband. I think
> it good practice to use duplex all the time on the satellites, FM or
> linear, but that is a topic for another time.
>
> 2. Use a gain antenna, like a Yagi. Even a two or three element Yagi will
> help a lot to bring the satellite received signal and satellite noise floor
> above your local noise floor. I think an antenna with the elements for
> both bands all in a plane, like the cheap Yagis, the DK7ZB duoband
> antennas. or a log periodic like the Elk is better than an antenna where
> the elements for the two bands are orthogonal. Again, antennas are a topic
> for another time, but they are the easiest and cheapest way to improve your
> signal. Some may say only way.
>
> 3. If you are new to linear satellites, tell those who you contact you are
> new to the linear satellites and ask how your signal compares to the beacon
> or to other responsible ops.
>
> 4. If you are reluctant to tell someone they are running too much power or
> don?t think you can do so tactfully, give reports relative to the beacon
> strength and hope that the op who receives a report that their signal is
> 10dB over the beacon will take the hint and reduce their power. Best case,
> they will ask what that means and why it is important.
>
> 5. Realize that the satellite passband is a shared resource. It is not
> always easy to share. Recognize that and try to behave in the passband the
> way that you would like others to behave in the passband. Although we tend
> to think of sharing in terms of who gets the kindergarten and preschool
> toys, or who gets the last piece of cake or pie, or who gets to ride
> shotgun, it is more like the ?Tragedy of the Commons? that you learned
> about in freshman econ. To refresh your memory read:
> < https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons > and act
> accordingly.
>
> 6. If someone consistently runs too much power on the satellites, it is
> often out of ignorance rather than malicious intent. Mentoring locals that
> are operating with poor receive capability or poor antennas, and offering
> help, can go a long ways towards helping reduce alligators. When someone
> moves up from the FM birds and wants to improve their station, they are
> often amazed that replacing that run of RG58 with LMR400 or even RG213 and
> putting up a cheap Yagi makes a big difference. And if they operate duplex
> they can hear the difference.
>
> I hope this helps. The problem is an electro-psychological one, where
> attitude is as important to the solution as is technology. Few of us
> readily change our behavior without a wake up call. - Duffey
>
> James Duffey KK6MC
> Cedar Crest NM
>
> On Mar 7, 2020, at 04:23, Hasan al-Basri via AMSAT-BB <amsat-bb@?????.???>
> wrote:
>
> ?Joe, (and other inexperienced sat operators). When I use the term 'you'
> in
> this post it is not to be taken personally. If the shoe fits...well, then
> yes, take it personally, otherwise just take it as a way to describe an
> operating guide.
>
> 1. Yes running too much EIRP aka Effective Radiated Power, (power plus
> antenna gain - feedline loss) ruins operations for other operators. It may
> also cause a malfunction of AO-7, to include FM'ing on SSB or shutting down
> the xponder entirely.
>
> AO-7 is a particularly sensitive case. So, let's set it to the side for the
> moment.
>
> On the other linear (SSB/CW) birds like CAS-4A, 4B, XW-2A, 2B, 2D (again),
> and 2F here are the issues:
>
> The downlink power (the sat's transmitter) is shared. It is shared in
> proportion to the strength of the uplink signal from each individual
> station. So, if a station is running *excessive EIRP,* they capture the
> vast majority of the available downlink power and everyone else's signal is
> driven into the noise floor. This happens at a syllabic rate on voices
> (heard by others running proper power levels as a pumping up and down of
> their signal at the speech rate of the offending signal). On cw, it is even
> worse, with each keyed character driving all the other signals into the
> noise floor at the keying rate.
>
> Saying, "I'm only running 5 watts" is NOT an acceptable answer. It also
> demonstrates that those saying it have no idea how to considerately operate
> on a satellite.
>
> *There is one simple rule: You should never be louder on the downlink than
> the strength of the CW beacon, period.*
>
> It is the ops responsibility to stay within this limit. No excuses, no
> explanations, just do it.
>
> Unfortunately, this pumping/power robbing happens frequently on all birds,
> because operators either:
>
> 1. Have no idea what they are doing....or
> 2. Don't care that they are ruining the operation for others.
>
> I have many hours of 15 minute pass MP4 recordings of these situations and
> have been tempted to publish them. I have resisted publishing them because
> so many of them seem to be the result of "innocent" mistakes.
>
> So, what is excessive EIRP and how do we avoid it? For simplicity's sake,
> I'm going to refer to EIRP as power.
>
> You should adjust your uplink power so that it *NEVER *exceeds the strength
> of the CW beacon you are hearing *AT THAT TIME*. Simply looking at the
> beacon once in an entire 15 minute pass does not reflect what is happening
> throughout the pass. The beacon reference needs to be repeatedly checked
> during the pass to see if you need to power down. It's a LOT easier to tell
> if you have enough power (you can hear yourself), but a lot harder to pay
> attention to the fact you are too loud.
>
> I cannot tell you how many times I have witnessed a QSO where one op tells
> the other, "*You have a great signal*"....yeah, 8 dB above the beacon,
> stealing the downlink power from the considerate operators who have kept
> their uplink power low enough to stay no stronger than the beacon. Yes,
> they are loud. But on this shared resource we call a satellite downlink
> passband, being an Alligator (big mouth, poor ears) is not something to be
> proud of, nor should we be complimenting operators for this lack of either
> 1) awareness; or 2) consideration, for the other operators.
>
> Also, you may sound weak because of poor receiver performance on your end,
> so you are tempted to turn up your transmit power to make up for your poor
> ears. *This is a constant problem on the birds as they are being used
> lately. *Many ops seem unaware of how poorly they are hearing and it has
> little or nothing to do with their bright and shiny new rig. :-)
>
> Someone else mentioned, that if you can't hear the beacon, don't
> transmit. *Truer
> words were never spoken*. If your rx performance is so bad that you cannot
> hear a signal that is easily 15 to 25 dB above the noise, then don't
> transmit, all you are going to do is power rob others.
>
> The truth is, all of the linear birds on mode B (2m downlink), have beacons
> that consistently run 15 to 25 dB above the noise floor. If you don't
> hear them that strong, fix your receiver setup. Add a preamp, use better
> coax, increase your receiver antenna gain. etc.
>
> Another simple test: do you hear passband noise from the satellite? When it
> comes into view, you should be able to hear a marked increase in your
> receive noise. At the peak of the pass you should be able to hear it
> easily. If you don't, your rx performance is poor. 9700 and SDR users will
> see a marked 'hump' shape of the passband if they are set to a wide
> panoramic view.
>
> Turning up your transmit power is not the solution and you will, indeed,
> ruin other people's qsos.
>
> In another post, I mentioned a simple and dirty way to tell if you have
> adequate receiver performance. It requires no test equipment.
>
> 1. Disconnect your antenna.
> 2. Connect a 50 ohm dummy load (a simple 47 Ohm resistor works fine) to the
> antenna input of your radio. You will not be transmitting.
> 3. If you can turn the agc off in your rx, do so. If not, set it to Fast.
> 4. Noise Blanker or Noise Reduction OFF
> 5. Now....turn up the volume so the noise coming out of the speaker is
> quite obvious, but not ear splitting.
>
> Remember how loud it sounds.
>
> 6. Quickly disconnect the resistor and replace it with your satellite
> antenna.
>
> Did the noise jump up considerably compared to the noise caused by the 50
> ohm resistor?
>
> If not, your rx performance is poor. You need to fix it, as above.
>
> If it did jump up, at least a bit, you are probably in a relatively quiet
> RF location for noise and that is really good...and the fact that you can
> hear environmental noise above your receiver's internally generated noise
> is very good.
>
> If it jumped up a very large amount, then your locally generated
> environmental noise is high, which is NOT good, because you will end up
> turning up your transmit power (uplink) to the birds to overcome it...and
> of course, the rest of the people using the satellite will be driven down
> into the noise floor, or power modulated by your speech rate or cw keying.
>
> So, what do we do about all of this?
>
> 1. Exercise some real care about your operating practices. Take time to
> learn how your station performance varies by the nature of a pass (shallow,
> moderate, very high) and during a pass ((current elevation and polarization
> fading).
>
> Using linear birds considerately requires skill and operator attentiveness.
> This is completely different than FM birds and is much more demanding of
> operator intervention.
>
> *Most importantly, during the pass itself check the beacon strength several
> times and adjust your uplink power such that your received signal does not
> exceed the strength of the CW beacon.*
>
> Those with the nice shiny new Icom 9700 have no excuse for ever being
> stronger than the beacon. They can simultaneously monitor the beacon level
> and their own signal (as well as others in the passband) with the
> panadapter feature of the 9700. Set your rx width on the panadaptor to +/-
> 25 kHz and center it so the PSK beacon is at the left edge of the display
> and the right edge is above the op of the satellite passband (and you will
> see the CW beacon just above (to the right) of the PSK beacon and the
> normal passband just above (further to the right) of the CW beacon). This
> should be on your display all the time. Then you can always see if you are
> too strong. It will be obvious.
>
> 2. If you have access to an SDR dongle like the FunCube Pro +, run software
> like SDR Console v3 (free). You will be able to see every signal in the
> passband in real time from the PSKBeacon to the CW Beacon to your signal
> and all the others.
>
> When you can see what poor operating practices do to the satellite passband
> and everyone trying use it, you will be amazed.
>
> Since more and more of the serious satellite ops are getting 9700s and
> SDRs, I find that the first thing I tell someone when I'm working them is
> how strong their signal is (in relative dBm) and how strong the beacon is
> (in relative dBm) . If they are exceeding he beacon, I ask them to reduce
> power. It's that simple.
>
> I'd really like to not have to:
>
> 1. Chase people all over the birds asking them to reduce their signal
> because they are 6 to 10 dB over the beacon and are "power modulating"
> every signal on the satellite.
>
> 2. Get on their freq and politely call them....only to have to chase them
> all over the passband because they can't hear themselves and they continue
> to transmit anyway.
>
> As the popularity of satellites, especially the linear birds, has
> increased, we are coming under more and more pressure to clean up our
> operating habits. These are NOT FM birds. *Getting on one freq and
> capturing the downlink with one signal with all the juice you can put out
> is not an acceptable operating technique on the linear birds*.
>
> It is inconsiderate and destructive.
>
> Hopefully, the directness of these explanations will help and not offend
> new satellite ops. It has gotten bad enough, that something needed to be
> said. We want all of you on the birds, just play nicely.
>
> 73, N0AN
> Hasan
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 6, 2020 at 3:19 PM Joe KD2NFC via AMSAT-BB <amsat-bb@?????.???
> >
> wrote:
>
> I was just on AO-7 and was told to lower my power from more then one
>
> person. Sorry about that folks, just getting adjusted here, please be
>
> patient with a satellite beginner.
>
>
> Now that we are here I was curious what a lot of power in does to the
>
> linear birds, does it ruin the passband for others? Also how much is a good
>
> amount of power to start with or one shouldn?t exceed?
>
>
> FM birds probably have similar operating rules as well right. I?m here to
>
> learn :)
>
>
> Joe
>
> KD2NFC
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
>
> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions
>
> expressed
>
> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
>
> AMSAT-NA.
>
> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
>
> Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions
> expressed
> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
> AMSAT-NA.
> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
> Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>
>
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 08:02:02 -0800
From: Bob Hammond <propgrinder@?????.???>
To: amsat-bb@?????.???
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Lower your power!!!
Message-ID:
<CAKoB7OrfBY2bB_zVM=BM+H-08OUunNqTPHuWZBy3TV0cXNAO8w@????.?????.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Hasan, that is a great post. Thanks.
I made the mistake of having my IC-9700 power at 100% when I first got set
up. I had never given TX power any thought since I'd only used a handheld
and Arrow antenna before (when I started in satellites in the 1990s).
Bob W7OTJ
On Sat, Mar 7, 2020 at 3:32 AM Hasan al-Basri via AMSAT-BB <
amsat-bb@?????.???> wrote:
> Joe, (and other inexperienced sat operators). When I use the term 'you' in
> this post it is not to be taken personally. If the shoe fits...well, then
> yes, take it personally, otherwise just take it as a way to describe an
> operating guide.
>
> 1. Yes running too much EIRP aka Effective Radiated Power, (power plus
> antenna gain - feedline loss) ruins operations for other operators. It may
> also cause a malfunction of AO-7, to include FM'ing on SSB or shutting down
> the xponder entirely.
>
> AO-7 is a particularly sensitive case. So, let's set it to the side for the
> moment.
>
> On the other linear (SSB/CW) birds like CAS-4A, 4B, XW-2A, 2B, 2D (again),
> and 2F here are the issues:
>
> The downlink power (the sat's transmitter) is shared. It is shared in
> proportion to the strength of the uplink signal from each individual
> station. So, if a station is running *excessive EIRP,* they capture the
> vast majority of the available downlink power and everyone else's signal is
> driven into the noise floor. This happens at a syllabic rate on voices
> (heard by others running proper power levels as a pumping up and down of
> their signal at the speech rate of the offending signal). On cw, it is even
> worse, with each keyed character driving all the other signals into the
> noise floor at the keying rate.
>
> Saying, "I'm only running 5 watts" is NOT an acceptable answer. It also
> demonstrates that those saying it have no idea how to considerately operate
> on a satellite.
>
> *There is one simple rule: You should never be louder on the downlink than
> the strength of the CW beacon, period.*
>
> It is the ops responsibility to stay within this limit. No excuses, no
> explanations, just do it.
>
> Unfortunately, this pumping/power robbing happens frequently on all birds,
> because operators either:
>
> 1. Have no idea what they are doing....or
> 2. Don't care that they are ruining the operation for others.
>
> I have many hours of 15 minute pass MP4 recordings of these situations and
> have been tempted to publish them. I have resisted publishing them because
> so many of them seem to be the result of "innocent" mistakes.
>
> So, what is excessive EIRP and how do we avoid it? For simplicity's sake,
> I'm going to refer to EIRP as power.
>
> You should adjust your uplink power so that it *NEVER *exceeds the strength
> of the CW beacon you are hearing *AT THAT TIME*. Simply looking at the
> beacon once in an entire 15 minute pass does not reflect what is happening
> throughout the pass. The beacon reference needs to be repeatedly checked
> during the pass to see if you need to power down. It's a LOT easier to tell
> if you have enough power (you can hear yourself), but a lot harder to pay
> attention to the fact you are too loud.
>
> I cannot tell you how many times I have witnessed a QSO where one op tells
> the other, "*You have a great signal*"....yeah, 8 dB above the beacon,
> stealing the downlink power from the considerate operators who have kept
> their uplink power low enough to stay no stronger than the beacon. Yes,
> they are loud. But on this shared resource we call a satellite downlink
> passband, being an Alligator (big mouth, poor ears) is not something to be
> proud of, nor should we be complimenting operators for this lack of either
> 1) awareness; or 2) consideration, for the other operators.
>
> Also, you may sound weak because of poor receiver performance on your end,
> so you are tempted to turn up your transmit power to make up for your poor
> ears. *This is a constant problem on the birds as they are being used
> lately. *Many ops seem unaware of how poorly they are hearing and it has
> little or nothing to do with their bright and shiny new rig. :-)
>
> Someone else mentioned, that if you can't hear the beacon, don't
> transmit. *Truer
> words were never spoken*. If your rx performance is so bad that you cannot
> hear a signal that is easily 15 to 25 dB above the noise, then don't
> transmit, all you are going to do is power rob others.
>
> The truth is, all of the linear birds on mode B (2m downlink), have beacons
> that consistently run 15 to 25 dB above the noise floor. If you don't
> hear them that strong, fix your receiver setup. Add a preamp, use better
> coax, increase your receiver antenna gain. etc.
>
> Another simple test: do you hear passband noise from the satellite? When it
> comes into view, you should be able to hear a marked increase in your
> receive noise. At the peak of the pass you should be able to hear it
> easily. If you don't, your rx performance is poor. 9700 and SDR users will
> see a marked 'hump' shape of the passband if they are set to a wide
> panoramic view.
>
> Turning up your transmit power is not the solution and you will, indeed,
> ruin other people's qsos.
>
> In another post, I mentioned a simple and dirty way to tell if you have
> adequate receiver performance. It requires no test equipment.
>
> 1. Disconnect your antenna.
> 2. Connect a 50 ohm dummy load (a simple 47 Ohm resistor works fine) to the
> antenna input of your radio. You will not be transmitting.
> 3. If you can turn the agc off in your rx, do so. If not, set it to Fast.
> 4. Noise Blanker or Noise Reduction OFF
> 5. Now....turn up the volume so the noise coming out of the speaker is
> quite obvious, but not ear splitting.
>
> Remember how loud it sounds.
>
> 6. Quickly disconnect the resistor and replace it with your satellite
> antenna.
>
> Did the noise jump up considerably compared to the noise caused by the 50
> ohm resistor?
>
> If not, your rx performance is poor. You need to fix it, as above.
>
> If it did jump up, at least a bit, you are probably in a relatively quiet
> RF location for noise and that is really good...and the fact that you can
> hear environmental noise above your receiver's internally generated noise
> is very good.
>
> If it jumped up a very large amount, then your locally generated
> environmental noise is high, which is NOT good, because you will end up
> turning up your transmit power (uplink) to the birds to overcome it...and
> of course, the rest of the people using the satellite will be driven down
> into the noise floor, or power modulated by your speech rate or cw keying.
>
> So, what do we do about all of this?
>
> 1. Exercise some real care about your operating practices. Take time to
> learn how your station performance varies by the nature of a pass (shallow,
> moderate, very high) and during a pass ((current elevation and polarization
> fading).
>
> Using linear birds considerately requires skill and operator attentiveness.
> This is completely different than FM birds and is much more demanding of
> operator intervention.
>
> *Most importantly, during the pass itself check the beacon strength several
> times and adjust your uplink power such that your received signal does not
> exceed the strength of the CW beacon.*
>
> Those with the nice shiny new Icom 9700 have no excuse for ever being
> stronger than the beacon. They can simultaneously monitor the beacon level
> and their own signal (as well as others in the passband) with the
> panadapter feature of the 9700. Set your rx width on the panadaptor to +/-
> 25 kHz and center it so the PSK beacon is at the left edge of the display
> and the right edge is above the op of the satellite passband (and you will
> see the CW beacon just above (to the right) of the PSK beacon and the
> normal passband just above (further to the right) of the CW beacon). This
> should be on your display all the time. Then you can always see if you are
> too strong. It will be obvious.
>
> 2. If you have access to an SDR dongle like the FunCube Pro +, run software
> like SDR Console v3 (free). You will be able to see every signal in the
> passband in real time from the PSKBeacon to the CW Beacon to your signal
> and all the others.
>
> When you can see what poor operating practices do to the satellite passband
> and everyone trying use it, you will be amazed.
>
> Since more and more of the serious satellite ops are getting 9700s and
> SDRs, I find that the first thing I tell someone when I'm working them is
> how strong their signal is (in relative dBm) and how strong the beacon is
> (in relative dBm) . If they are exceeding he beacon, I ask them to reduce
> power. It's that simple.
>
> I'd really like to not have to:
>
> 1. Chase people all over the birds asking them to reduce their signal
> because they are 6 to 10 dB over the beacon and are "power modulating"
> every signal on the satellite.
>
> 2. Get on their freq and politely call them....only to have to chase them
> all over the passband because they can't hear themselves and they continue
> to transmit anyway.
>
> As the popularity of satellites, especially the linear birds, has
> increased, we are coming under more and more pressure to clean up our
> operating habits. These are NOT FM birds. *Getting on one freq and
> capturing the downlink with one signal with all the juice you can put out
> is not an acceptable operating technique on the linear birds*.
>
> It is inconsiderate and destructive.
>
> Hopefully, the directness of these explanations will help and not offend
> new satellite ops. It has gotten bad enough, that something needed to be
> said. We want all of you on the birds, just play nicely.
>
> 73, N0AN
> Hasan
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 6, 2020 at 3:19 PM Joe KD2NFC via AMSAT-BB <amsat-bb@?????.???
> >
> wrote:
>
> > I was just on AO-7 and was told to lower my power from more then one
> > person. Sorry about that folks, just getting adjusted here, please be
> > patient with a satellite beginner.
> >
> > Now that we are here I was curious what a lot of power in does to the
> > linear birds, does it ruin the passband for others? Also how much is a
> good
> > amount of power to start with or one shouldn?t exceed?
> >
> > FM birds probably have similar operating rules as well right. I?m here
> to
> > learn :)
> >
> > Joe
> > KD2NFC
> >
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> > _______________________________________________
> > Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
> > to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
> Opinions
> > expressed
> > are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
> > AMSAT-NA.
> > Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
> program!
> > Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions
> expressed
> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
> AMSAT-NA.
> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
> Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 17:45:38 +0000 (UTC)
From: James Brown <ki6wj@?????.???>
To: AMSAT BB <amsat-bb@?????.???>
Subject: [amsat-bb] email address
Message-ID: <1096184103.2013617.1583603138382@????.?????.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
To moderator.
I have previously tried to change my email address.Please change from
ki6wj@???.???? to?? ki6wj@?????.???
ThanksJim KI6WJ
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 20:00:30 +0000
From: "Devin L. Ganger" <devin@????????.???>
To: Hasan al-Basri <hbasri.schiers6@?????.???>, Joe KD2NFC
<kd2nfc@?????.???>
Cc: AMSAT-BB <amsat-bb@?????.???>
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Lower your power!!!
Message-ID:
<MWHPR01MB32630C898A321F7BFE076CECCAE00@?????????????.????.????????????.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252"
Very nice write-up ? clearly describes the problems AND how to fix them.
Appreciated!
--
Devin L. Ganger (WA7DLG)
email: devin@????????.???
web: Devin on Earth
cell: +1 425.239.2575
________________________________
From: AMSAT-BB <amsat-bb-bounces@?????.???> on behalf of Hasan al-Basri via
AMSAT-BB <amsat-bb@?????.???>
Sent: Saturday, March 7, 2020 3:22:41 AM
To: Joe KD2NFC <kd2nfc@?????.???>
Cc: AMSAT-BB <amsat-bb@?????.???>
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Lower your power!!!
Joe, (and other inexperienced sat operators). When I use the term 'you' in
this post it is not to be taken personally. If the shoe fits...well, then
yes, take it personally, otherwise just take it as a way to describe an
operating guide.
1. Yes running too much EIRP aka Effective Radiated Power, (power plus
antenna gain - feedline loss) ruins operations for other operators. It may
also cause a malfunction of AO-7, to include FM'ing on SSB or shutting down
the xponder entirely.
AO-7 is a particularly sensitive case. So, let's set it to the side for the
moment.
On the other linear (SSB/CW) birds like CAS-4A, 4B, XW-2A, 2B, 2D (again),
and 2F here are the issues:
The downlink power (the sat's transmitter) is shared. It is shared in
proportion to the strength of the uplink signal from each individual
station. So, if a station is running *excessive EIRP,* they capture the
vast majority of the available downlink power and everyone else's signal is
driven into the noise floor. This happens at a syllabic rate on voices
(heard by others running proper power levels as a pumping up and down of
their signal at the speech rate of the offending signal). On cw, it is even
worse, with each keyed character driving all the other signals into the
noise floor at the keying rate.
Saying, "I'm only running 5 watts" is NOT an acceptable answer. It also
demonstrates that those saying it have no idea how to considerately operate
on a satellite.
*There is one simple rule: You should never be louder on the downlink than
the strength of the CW beacon, period.*
It is the ops responsibility to stay within this limit. No excuses, no
explanations, just do it.
Unfortunately, this pumping/power robbing happens frequently on all birds,
because operators either:
1. Have no idea what they are doing....or
2. Don't care that they are ruining the operation for others.
I have many hours of 15 minute pass MP4 recordings of these situations and
have been tempted to publish them. I have resisted publishing them because
so many of them seem to be the result of "innocent" mistakes.
So, what is excessive EIRP and how do we avoid it? For simplicity's sake,
I'm going to refer to EIRP as power.
You should adjust your uplink power so that it *NEVER *exceeds the strength
of the CW beacon you are hearing *AT THAT TIME*. Simply looking at the
beacon once in an entire 15 minute pass does not reflect what is happening
throughout the pass. The beacon reference needs to be repeatedly checked
during the pass to see if you need to power down. It's a LOT easier to tell
if you have enough power (you can hear yourself), but a lot harder to pay
attention to the fact you are too loud.
I cannot tell you how many times I have witnessed a QSO where one op tells
the other, "*You have a great signal*"....yeah, 8 dB above the beacon,
stealing the downlink power from the considerate operators who have kept
their uplink power low enough to stay no stronger than the beacon. Yes,
they are loud. But on this shared resource we call a satellite downlink
passband, being an Alligator (big mouth, poor ears) is not something to be
proud of, nor should we be complimenting operators for this lack of either
1) awareness; or 2) consideration, for the other operators.
Also, you may sound weak because of poor receiver performance on your end,
so you are tempted to turn up your transmit power to make up for your poor
ears. *This is a constant problem on the birds as they are being used
lately. *Many ops seem unaware of how poorly they are hearing and it has
little or nothing to do with their bright and shiny new rig. :-)
Someone else mentioned, that if you can't hear the beacon, don't
transmit. *Truer
words were never spoken*. If your rx performance is so bad that you cannot
hear a signal that is easily 15 to 25 dB above the noise, then don't
transmit, all you are going to do is power rob others.
The truth is, all of the linear birds on mode B (2m downlink), have beacons
that consistently run 15 to 25 dB above the noise floor. If you don't
hear them that strong, fix your receiver setup. Add a preamp, use better
coax, increase your receiver antenna gain. etc.
Another simple test: do you hear passband noise from the satellite? When it
comes into view, you should be able to hear a marked increase in your
receive noise. At the peak of the pass you should be able to hear it
easily. If you don't, your rx performance is poor. 9700 and SDR users will
see a marked 'hump' shape of the passband if they are set to a wide
panoramic view.
Turning up your transmit power is not the solution and you will, indeed,
ruin other people's qsos.
In another post, I mentioned a simple and dirty way to tell if you have
adequate receiver performance. It requires no test equipment.
1. Disconnect your antenna.
2. Connect a 50 ohm dummy load (a simple 47 Ohm resistor works fine) to the
antenna input of your radio. You will not be transmitting.
3. If you can turn the agc off in your rx, do so. If not, set it to Fast.
4. Noise Blanker or Noise Reduction OFF
5. Now....turn up the volume so the noise coming out of the speaker is
quite obvious, but not ear splitting.
Remember how loud it sounds.
6. Quickly disconnect the resistor and replace it with your satellite
antenna.
Did the noise jump up considerably compared to the noise caused by the 50
ohm resistor?
If not, your rx performance is poor. You need to fix it, as above.
If it did jump up, at least a bit, you are probably in a relatively quiet
RF location for noise and that is really good...and the fact that you can
hear environmental noise above your receiver's internally generated noise
is very good.
If it jumped up a very large amount, then your locally generated
environmental noise is high, which is NOT good, because you will end up
turning up your transmit power (uplink) to the birds to overcome it...and
of course, the rest of the people using the satellite will be driven down
into the noise floor, or power modulated by your speech rate or cw keying.
So, what do we do about all of this?
1. Exercise some real care about your operating practices. Take time to
learn how your station performance varies by the nature of a pass (shallow,
moderate, very high) and during a pass ((current elevation and polarization
fading).
Using linear birds considerately requires skill and operator attentiveness.
This is completely different than FM birds and is much more demanding of
operator intervention.
*Most importantly, during the pass itself check the beacon strength several
times and adjust your uplink power such that your received signal does not
exceed the strength of the CW beacon.*
Those with the nice shiny new Icom 9700 have no excuse for ever being
stronger than the beacon. They can simultaneously monitor the beacon level
and their own signal (as well as others in the passband) with the
panadapter feature of the 9700. Set your rx width on the panadaptor to +/-
25 kHz and center it so the PSK beacon is at the left edge of the display
and the right edge is above the op of the satellite passband (and you will
see the CW beacon just above (to the right) of the PSK beacon and the
normal passband just above (further to the right) of the CW beacon). This
should be on your display all the time. Then you can always see if you are
too strong. It will be obvious.
2. If you have access to an SDR dongle like the FunCube Pro +, run software
like SDR Console v3 (free). You will be able to see every signal in the
passband in real time from the PSKBeacon to the CW Beacon to your signal
and all the others.
When you can see what poor operating practices do to the satellite passband
and everyone trying use it, you will be amazed.
Since more and more of the serious satellite ops are getting 9700s and
SDRs, I find that the first thing I tell someone when I'm working them is
how strong their signal is (in relative dBm) and how strong the beacon is
(in relative dBm) . If they are exceeding he beacon, I ask them to reduce
power. It's that simple.
I'd really like to not have to:
1. Chase people all over the birds asking them to reduce their signal
because they are 6 to 10 dB over the beacon and are "power modulating"
every signal on the satellite.
2. Get on their freq and politely call them....only to have to chase them
all over the passband because they can't hear themselves and they continue
to transmit anyway.
As the popularity of satellites, especially the linear birds, has
increased, we are coming under more and more pressure to clean up our
operating habits. These are NOT FM birds. *Getting on one freq and
capturing the downlink with one signal with all the juice you can put out
is not an acceptable operating technique on the linear birds*.
It is inconsiderate and destructive.
Hopefully, the directness of these explanations will help and not offend
new satellite ops. It has gotten bad enough, that something needed to be
said. We want all of you on the birds, just play nicely.
73, N0AN
Hasan
On Fri, Mar 6, 2020 at 3:19 PM Joe KD2NFC via AMSAT-BB <amsat-bb@?????.???>
wrote:
> I was just on AO-7 and was told to lower my power from more then one
> person. Sorry about that folks, just getting adjusted here, please be
> patient with a satellite beginner.
>
> Now that we are here I was curious what a lot of power in does to the
> linear birds, does it ruin the passband for others? Also how much is a good
> amount of power to start with or one shouldn?t exceed?
>
> FM birds probably have similar operating rules as well right. I?m here to
> learn :)
>
> Joe
> KD2NFC
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
> _______________________________________________
> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions
> expressed
> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
> AMSAT-NA.
> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
> Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>
_______________________________________________
Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions
expressed
are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
AMSAT-NA.
Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
------------------------------
Subject: Digest Footer
_______________________________________________
Sent via amsat-bb@?????.???.
AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide
without requiring membership. Opinions expressed
are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
AMSAT-NA.
Not an AMSAT member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
------------------------------
End of AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol 15, Issue 72
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