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CX2SA > SATDIG 13.07.20 16:51l 1058 Lines 39396 Bytes #999 (0) @ WW
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From: CX2SA@CX2SA.SAL.URY.SOAM
To : SATDIG@WW
Today's Topics:
1. Re: Testing (Bruce Perens)
2. Re: Members Please Read (Bruce Perens)
3. Enough of this! (Meeko Kittika)
4. Re: AMSAT Member Mailing list (Kevin)
5. Re: Members Please Read - 2 solutions (Michael Walker)
6. Re: AMSAT Member Mailing list (David Swanson)
7. Re: Enough of this! (Glenn Miller AA5PK)
8. Gravitas (Jeff Davis)
9. Re: AMSAT Member Mailing list (Michelle Thompson)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2020 22:33:57 -0700
From: Bruce Perens <bruce@??????.???>
To: Jeff Moore <tnetcenter@?????.???>
Cc: Amsat BB <amsat-bb@?????.???>
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Testing
Message-ID:
<CAK2MWOtz55S5Hisbb765z65ZQ=rLt+p_AMyAwMzrGj-HjKSABg@????.?????.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
I am saving the pillory for someone who does greater damage. :-) Please
elect new blood, every organization needs it. That is all that is necessary.
Bruce
On Sun, Jul 12, 2020, 8:44 PM Jeff Moore via AMSAT-BB <amsat-bb@?????.???>
wrote:
> I agree with this assessment of the situation with one exception!!
>
> AMSAT-NA is not a cookie jar, and these are not kids!!! IF in fact there
> is some legal liability here - then the responsible parties should be held
> accountable!! If that means prison time - then so be it!!! A thief is a
> thief and theft is illegal - let the chips fall where they should!!!
>
> The LAST thing that should happen here is pillorying the whistleblowers
> assuming they are correct and without liability here!
>
> 7 3
> Jeff Moore -- KE7ACY
>
>
>
> On Sun, Jul 12, 2020 at 8:22 PM Michael Tondee via AMSAT-BB <
> amsat-bb@?????.???> wrote:
>
> > I'm sorry but I don't see where my last post ever got through. Pretty
> > sure it was sent to the right place but I never saw it show up. Hmnn,
> > wonder why... too critical? At any rate, not a member but reading all
> > the mud being slung at two board members, who for the most part just
> > seemed to have asked for some board accountability, this sure looks like
> > a classic case of the kids getting caught with their hand in the
> > proverbial cookie jar and they're now scurrying to cover it up from
> > Mom&Dad. Sigh....
> >
> > 73,
> >
> > Michael, W4HIJ
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
> > to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
> Opinions
> > expressed
> > are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
> > AMSAT-NA.
> > Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
> program!
> > Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions
> expressed
> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
> AMSAT-NA.
> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
> Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2020 23:01:30 -0700
From: Bruce Perens <bruce@??????.???>
To: "Paul F. Merrill" <marinesvcs@?????.???>
Cc: AMSAT BB <amsat-bb@?????.???>
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Members Please Read
Message-ID:
<CAK2MWOtaYqGL78Pa03AC=a3fFLz9V6=ydrxPk6mB1_21yN_zPA@????.?????.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Paul,
Roberts Rules are regarding parliamentary procedure. AMSAT's bylaws are at
https://www.amsat.org/bylaws-of-the-radio-amateur-satellite-corporation/ .
They do not specify parliamentary procedure. They are about
responsibilities of a director, elections, etc. And if you have the choice,
Roberts is an antique, good parliamentarians use Sturgis.
Bruce
On Sun, Jul 12, 2020, 9:12 PM Paul F. Merrill via AMSAT-BB <
amsat-bb@?????.???> wrote:
> I agree that this mailing list has strayed from its strongest contribution:
> satellite information, discussion, and mentoring.
>
> I come from, and have been on the BOD of, a professional organization for a
> number of years now.
>
> FWIW, I know too well that an organization often lawyers up to protect
> itself, and in our issues, our attorney was engaged to act solely on behalf
> of the Organization and not necessarily current management.
>
> This thread has turned in to a long, ugly diatribe filled with accusations,
> counter-accusations, and painfully-obvious shills. I am a recently-renewed
> member who doesn?t have a dog in the fight, so I just want what?s best for
> AMSAT.
>
> Sadly, the stereotypes are starting to show - the members who contribute
> nothing but want to tear down those ?In power,? the members who contribute
> nothing and don?t want anyone to make waves, and the few who actually do
> anything. As a number of people have commented, working in a non-profit or
> unpaid leadership role is utterly thankless, which is lost on many people -
> especially those who have never labored in this sort of endeavor.
>
> My favorite story from our times of trouble is when our Parliamentarian
> said, ?Roberts Rules are the last refuge of a scoundrel. Grown men and
> women should be able to comport themselves reasonably...but then I?d be out
> of a job.? I?m taking a little license with his exact words, but the
> sentiment, along with my experience, formed my native distrust of those who
> are right and everyone and everything before them is wrong. So...there?s
> my bias. I will examine that, and all the information I can before I
> vote. I hope everyone else will take the time and expend the effort to
> vote as intelligently as they can.
>
> My overriding guidance to my Association is that we contribute to the group
> so that we all benefit from the group. A strong organization should
> outlive us.
>
> Personally, I can?t wait to vote and hopefully put a fork in this.
>
> Paul / W7IV
>
>
>
> ????????-
>
> Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2020 19:27:24 -0700
> From: "Daron Wilson" <daron@??????.???>
> To: "'AMSAT BB'" <amsat-bb@?????.???>
> Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Members Please Read
> Message-ID: <00b501d658bd$26119cc0$7234d640$@???>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Is there a bulletin board that discusses amateur radio satellites
> operations still? Asking for a friend. This is getting old.
>
>
> Daron N7HQR
> _______________________________________________
> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions
> expressed
> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
> AMSAT-NA.
> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
> Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 06:11:00 +0000
From: Meeko Kittika <meekoblue@???????.??.??>
To: "amsat-bb@?????.???? <amsat-bb@?????.???>
Subject: [amsat-bb] Enough of this!
Message-ID:
<AM0PR01MB6100D154A0C5A37C2F0DEEA0E5600@?????????????.????????.????.??????????
??.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I'm from Amsat-UK land and completely disgusted with this pantomime.
I'm un-subscribing because I came here to discuss and learn about amateur
satellites with like minded individuals. I was wrong apparently. What I'm
witnessing is a mess. Sort yourselves out! You do a disservice to the hobby.
Meeko
M0FVD
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 06:13:38 -0700
From: Kevin <wa7fwf@?????.???>
Cc: AMSAT BB <amsat-bb@?????.???>
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] AMSAT Member Mailing list
Message-ID: <1a968820-04a2-74e2-dcb9-a7673ce6cecb@?????.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Bruce & Michelle,
??? I have no issue with Bruce writing it, I have no issue with a
candidate using the mailing list, the issue I have is if ORI/Bruce was
mailing it for them and ORI/Bruce having the list.
Had a candidate used the list and? a candidate mailed it under their
name and then ORI reimbursed them later for their costs later I would
have no issue with that either.
Since we are all keen about following the rules, the bylaws say? "Duly
nominated and eligible candidates shall be afforded equal opportunity to
circulate statements of their qualifications and positions to the
Members through the corporation?s publications and shall have use of the
corporation?s mailing lists for election-related purposes at no cost to
the corporation."
It does not say the candidates representatives or other organizations
that the candidate may belong to can have access to the list.
? AMSAT says they did not give the data to ORI, which I believe and you
have confirmed that it was indeed you, yet it appeared as a ORI/Bruce
mailing, If it was mailed through ORI's bulk mailer or ORI picked up the
cost then I would say it was treated as ORI business, and ORI has no
business having the that list, *That* is improper.
Michelle, you are saying now that you were the only one that was in
control of the list and the only one that dealt with the printer, that
is good.
?Although I'm still not clear why no one running wanted their return
address on the mailing, a quick lookup on QRZ has everyone's address, by
using the return address you did you created? the appearance of a 3rd
party having the mailing list and thus created this problem, using
time/cost as an excuse is not very good, anyone running for office could
have used their address and then one line added to the doc stating that
the mailing represented all candidates and avoided all of this.
If it was made clear later that this was not an ORI mailing with ORI in
control of the list I did not see it, was this sent to the BB or where
can I find this correction posted?
? One has to maintain a chain of control of private data, I did not
know if this was done. I do not know if the bulk mailer you used still
has the AMSAT mailing list on file, or if it was deleted once done, and
if still on file who has access to it?
?I know this may look like I'm splitting hairs here but I hope you
agree that? any org should always be clear and capable of proving that
they have handled data responsibly.
Kevin WA7FWF #19623
On 7/12/2020 10:30 PM, Bruce Perens wrote:
> The candidate felt that since I wrote the letter, that the return
> address should be mine. I didn't ask for it, I especially did not ask
> for my home address, which is not in the call book, to be used. As it
> happens, I found out about one silent key member in the return mail,
> which I passed on and promptly forgot. I work for lawyers all day in
> my consulting business, and thus I read the rules, I understand the
> rules, I follow the rules. These are not, by the way, Robert's Rules
> of Order. These are things like what a director is responsible for,
> and how to run an election. It really bothers me that the incumbents
> didn't know those rules.
>
> Thanks
>
> Bruce
>
> On Sun, Jul 12, 2020, 10:11 PM Kevin <wa7fwf@?????.???
> <mailto:wa7fwf@?????.???>> wrote:
>
> Well Bruce,
>
> ?? Something doesn't jive here,? " I didn't do the mailing . I
> only wrote the content "? then it seems the candidate would have
> been the person that was dealing with the bulk mailer and would
> have had their return address listed and it would not have been
> your home address on it.
>
> ?? Guess it's time to pick a different bulk mailer.
>
>
> Kevin WA7FWF #19623
>
>
>
>
> On 7/12/2020 9:48 PM, Bruce Perens wrote:
>> Kevin,
>>
>> No, I never saw the mailing list . I didn't do the mailing . I
>> only wrote the content .
>>
>> So, why was I involved at all ?
>>
>> I won't say I'm the best tech evangelist you know, because that
>> is for other people to judge. However, if you count the Open
>> Source movement in software; the campaign for the elimination of
>> the Morse code requirement for Amateur Radio licenses, which
>> among other things I got on the front page of the New York Times,
>> above the fold; My work to help elect a new ARRL board to end the
>> confidentiality versus transparency debacle; And my global
>> appearance for IBM's "Dear Tech", campaign, which got at least
>> 50000 television and Internet airplays;
>>
>> If you count all those things, I am probably the person you want
>> introducing you as a candidate, and I might be a good person to
>> tell you how to run a campaign.
>>
>> As it happens I wrote my own campaign, which I was going to put
>> out under my own name, endorsing those candidates. And then the
>> candidates chose to use it as their main campaign statement. This
>> was very flattering and entirely their own choice.
>>
>> As an ARRL member, it was my right to participate in their
>> election, and it is my right to participate in AMSAT's.
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Bruce K6BP
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Jul 12, 2020, 9:29 PM Kevin <wa7fwf@?????.???
>> <mailto:wa7fwf@?????.???>> wrote:
>>
>> Bruce,
>> ?? So hang on a moment, you're telling me that the candidates
>> are allowed to use the mailing list for their campaign
>> (fine), but rather than them doing it themselves they turned
>> the task over to you? So you were in possession of the
>> mailing list and then you turned it over to the bulk mailing
>> center when you authored the mailer?
>>
>> Kevin WA7FWF #19623
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 7/12/2020 9:08 PM, Bruce Perens wrote:
>>> The candidates are allowed the use of the mailing list for
>>> their campaign. If you read the bylaws, they make it very
>>> clear. One of the candidates did all of the handling of the
>>> mailing list.
>>>
>>> Incidentally, the board was not aware that they had to give
>>> the mailing list to the candidates. This was something the
>>> candidates had to tell them, after I read the bylaws. Had
>>> the board run things the way they desired, only a board
>>> controlled 200 word statement would have reached you from
>>> the candidates, except for the incumbents, who have had free
>>> use of AMSAT's official publications to carry their opinions.
>>>
>>> In a more perfect world, the board would have known their
>>> own bylaws, or at least the secretary who was running the
>>> election would have read them.
>>>
>>> But in a more perfect world, two people were trying to
>>> reform the organization with not face quite this uphill a
>>> battle.
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>> Bruce
>>>
>>> On Sun, Jul 12, 2020, 9:00 PM Kevin <wa7fwf@?????.???
>>> <mailto:wa7fwf@?????.???>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Well how did the bulk mailing company get the AMSAT
>>> member mailing list if AMSAT did not provide it?
>>>
>>> Kevin
>>>
>>>
>>> On 7/12/2020 8:32 PM, Bruce Perens wrote:
>>>> The mailing list was never compromised. But my HOME
>>>> address, under "Open Research Institute" was used as
>>>> the return address. This was a mistake and I didn't ask
>>>> for it. I was, however, the author of the mailer, in
>>>> which I introduced the candidates. The mailing was done
>>>> by a bulk Mail company and did not involve me. I got
>>>> one returned letter, informed someone responsible who
>>>> had a right to see that address, and promptly forgot it.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks
>>>>
>>>> Bruce
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Jul 12, 2020, 7:11 PM Kevin via AMSAT-BB
>>>> <amsat-bb@?????.??? <mailto:amsat-bb@?????.???>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> ??Hello All,
>>>>
>>>> ?? In a previous email to the BB I posted the link
>>>> to the letter we all
>>>> received as members.
>>>>
>>>>
https://www.amsat.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/20200710_AMSAT_Lead
ership_Explains_Legal_Expenses.pdf
>>>>
>>>> I was re-reading it and something caught my eye
>>>> that I had missed before.
>>>>
>>>> "AMSAT did not provide a copy of its membership
>>>> mailing addresses to
>>>> Open Research Institute."
>>>>
>>>> ??? Just how was our mailing list compromised? This
>>>> seems like a serious
>>>> breech of security, was this a hack? was any other
>>>> information lost?
>>>> was it ever found out how it happened? is our
>>>> mailing list as they say
>>>> "out in the wind"?
>>>>
>>>> Michelle could you possibly check from the ORI side
>>>> and backtrack how
>>>> ORI came into possession of the AMSAT mailing list,
>>>> was it something
>>>> that was procured online?
>>>>
>>>> AMSAT needs to follow up on this privacy issue and
>>>> report back what it
>>>> found and any steps that were taken to prevent this
>>>> from happening in
>>>> the future.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I look forward to an answer
>>>>
>>>> 73 Kevin WA7FWF #19623
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???
>>>> <mailto:AMSAT-BB@?????.???>. AMSAT-NA makes this
>>>> open forum available
>>>> to all interested persons worldwide without
>>>> requiring membership. Opinions expressed
>>>> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect
>>>> the official views of AMSAT-NA.
>>>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the
>>>> amateur satellite program!
>>>> Subscription settings:
>>>> https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 09:29:00 -0400
From: Michael Walker <va3mw@??????????.???>
To: AMSAT BB <amsat-bb@?????.???>
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Members Please Read - 2 solutions
Message-ID:
<CA+33ts79FsuVcij+tGcze2AqrS9hf=h1W=3V84My5TYXVvWF9g@????.?????.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
You have 2 options here:
1. Draw a line in the sand and move on - Yes, lots of stuff not resolved
but doesn't cost much money
2. Go on a witch hut - spend lots of money and likely the death of
Amsat since it won't have any funds left to do anything.
Decide... do you want satellites to talk on or piece of mind. I doubt you
can have both.
Mike va3mw
(yes, I am a member)
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 08:38:59 -0500
From: David Swanson <dave@?????????????.???>
To: Bruce Perens <bruce@??????.???>
Cc: AMSAT BB <amsat-bb@?????.???>
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] AMSAT Member Mailing list
Message-ID:
<CANq+eyUwZt1_t6zsXEiHzXwgvhevf=VDd+fYnhniMFF_Dy2Qww@????.?????.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Kevin you'll notice a whole lot of this doublespeak when dealing with
Director Thompson and their shills. "We didn't break the rules, you just
don't understand the rules". "The member list wasn't compromised, you just
don't understand what compromised means."
It's utterly ridiculous to think the person who authored the cover letter
of a mailer, and served as the "mailed from" address to an entire list of
people didn't first see that list. To believe otherwise is to fully commit
to an endless present in which the party is always right.
Dave, KG5CCI
On Mon, Jul 13, 2020, 8:14 AM Bruce Perens via AMSAT-BB <amsat-bb@?????.???>
wrote:
> The candidate felt that since I wrote the letter, that the return address
> should be mine. I didn't ask for it, I especially did not ask for my home
> address, which is not in the call book, to be used. As it happens, I found
> out about one silent key member in the return mail, which I passed on and
> promptly forgot. I work for lawyers all day in my consulting business, and
> thus I read the rules, I understand the rules, I follow the rules. These
> are not, by the way, Robert's Rules of Order. These are things like what a
> director is responsible for, and how to run an election. It really bothers
> me that the incumbents didn't know those rules.
>
> Thanks
>
> Bruce
>
> On Sun, Jul 12, 2020, 10:11 PM Kevin <wa7fwf@?????.???> wrote:
>
> > Well Bruce,
> >
> > Something doesn't jive here, " I didn't do the mailing . I only wrote
> > the content " then it seems the candidate would have been the person
> that
> > was dealing with the bulk mailer and would have had their return address
> > listed and it would not have been your home address on it.
> >
> > Guess it's time to pick a different bulk mailer.
> >
> >
> > Kevin WA7FWF #19623
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 7/12/2020 9:48 PM, Bruce Perens wrote:
> >
> > Kevin,
> >
> > No, I never saw the mailing list . I didn't do the mailing . I only wrote
> > the content .
> >
> > So, why was I involved at all ?
> >
> > I won't say I'm the best tech evangelist you know, because that is for
> > other people to judge. However, if you count the Open Source movement in
> > software; the campaign for the elimination of the Morse code requirement
> > for Amateur Radio licenses, which among other things I got on the front
> > page of the New York Times, above the fold; My work to help elect a new
> > ARRL board to end the confidentiality versus transparency debacle; And my
> > global appearance for IBM's "Dear Tech", campaign, which got at least
> 50000
> > television and Internet airplays;
> >
> > If you count all those things, I am probably the person you want
> > introducing you as a candidate, and I might be a good person to tell you
> > how to run a campaign.
> >
> > As it happens I wrote my own campaign, which I was going to put out under
> > my own name, endorsing those candidates. And then the candidates chose to
> > use it as their main campaign statement. This was very flattering and
> > entirely their own choice.
> >
> > As an ARRL member, it was my right to participate in their election, and
> > it is my right to participate in AMSAT's.
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Bruce K6BP
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Jul 12, 2020, 9:29 PM Kevin <wa7fwf@?????.???> wrote:
> >
> >> Bruce,
> >> So hang on a moment, you're telling me that the candidates are
> allowed
> >> to use the mailing list for their campaign (fine), but rather than them
> >> doing it themselves they turned the task over to you? So you were in
> >> possession of the mailing list and then you turned it over to the bulk
> >> mailing center when you authored the mailer?
> >>
> >> Kevin WA7FWF #19623
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On 7/12/2020 9:08 PM, Bruce Perens wrote:
> >>
> >> The candidates are allowed the use of the mailing list for their
> >> campaign. If you read the bylaws, they make it very clear. One of the
> >> candidates did all of the handling of the mailing list.
> >>
> >> Incidentally, the board was not aware that they had to give the mailing
> >> list to the candidates. This was something the candidates had to tell
> them,
> >> after I read the bylaws. Had the board run things the way they desired,
> >> only a board controlled 200 word statement would have reached you from
> the
> >> candidates, except for the incumbents, who have had free use of AMSAT's
> >> official publications to carry their opinions.
> >>
> >> In a more perfect world, the board would have known their own bylaws, or
> >> at least the secretary who was running the election would have read
> them.
> >>
> >> But in a more perfect world, two people were trying to reform the
> >> organization with not face quite this uphill a battle.
> >>
> >> Thanks
> >>
> >> Bruce
> >>
> >> On Sun, Jul 12, 2020, 9:00 PM Kevin <wa7fwf@?????.???> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Well how did the bulk mailing company get the AMSAT member mailing list
> >>> if AMSAT did not provide it?
> >>>
> >>> Kevin
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On 7/12/2020 8:32 PM, Bruce Perens wrote:
> >>>
> >>> The mailing list was never compromised. But my HOME address, under
> "Open
> >>> Research Institute" was used as the return address. This was a mistake
> and
> >>> I didn't ask for it. I was, however, the author of the mailer, in
> which I
> >>> introduced the candidates. The mailing was done by a bulk Mail company
> and
> >>> did not involve me. I got one returned letter, informed someone
> responsible
> >>> who had a right to see that address, and promptly forgot it.
> >>>
> >>> Thanks
> >>>
> >>> Bruce
> >>>
> >>> On Sun, Jul 12, 2020, 7:11 PM Kevin via AMSAT-BB <amsat-bb@?????.???>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Hello All,
> >>>>
> >>>> In a previous email to the BB I posted the link to the letter we
> all
> >>>> received as members.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
>
https://www.amsat.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/20200710_AMSAT_Lead
ership_Explains_Legal_Expenses.pdf
> >>>>
> >>>> I was re-reading it and something caught my eye that I had missed
> >>>> before.
> >>>>
> >>>> "AMSAT did not provide a copy of its membership mailing addresses to
> >>>> Open Research Institute."
> >>>>
> >>>> Just how was our mailing list compromised? This seems like a
> >>>> serious
> >>>> breech of security, was this a hack? was any other information lost?
> >>>> was it ever found out how it happened? is our mailing list as they say
> >>>> "out in the wind"?
> >>>>
> >>>> Michelle could you possibly check from the ORI side and backtrack how
> >>>> ORI came into possession of the AMSAT mailing list, was it something
> >>>> that was procured online?
> >>>>
> >>>> AMSAT needs to follow up on this privacy issue and report back what it
> >>>> found and any steps that were taken to prevent this from happening in
> >>>> the future.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> I look forward to an answer
> >>>>
> >>>> 73 Kevin WA7FWF #19623
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
> >>>> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
> >>>> Opinions expressed
> >>>> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views
> >>>> of AMSAT-NA.
> >>>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
> >>>> program!
> >>>> Subscription settings:
> https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions
> expressed
> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
> AMSAT-NA.
> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
> Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 08:43:01 -0500
From: "Glenn Miller AA5PK" <aa5pk@??????????.???>
To: "Meeko Kittika" <meekoblue@???????.??.??>, <amsat-bb@?????.???>
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Enough of this!
Message-ID: <9FAF30CD7B0F4AA98182236F62BFBB62@??????????????>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
Couldn't agree more, Meeko.
Glenn
AA5PK
-----Original Message-----
From: Meeko Kittika via AMSAT-BB
Sent: Monday, July 13, 2020 1:11 AM
To: amsat-bb@?????.???
Subject: [amsat-bb] Enough of this!
I'm from Amsat-UK land and completely disgusted with this pantomime.
I'm un-subscribing because I came here to discuss and learn about amateur
satellites with like minded individuals. I was
wrong apparently. What I'm witnessing is a mess. Sort yourselves out! You do
a disservice to the hobby.
Meeko
M0FVD
_______________________________________________
Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions
expressed
are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
AMSAT-NA.
Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 10:06:51 -0400
From: Jeff Davis <ke9v@???.???>
To: AMSAT-BB <amsat-bb@?????.???>
Subject: [amsat-bb] Gravitas
Message-ID: <47852A8D-A8B9-40D2-B6A2-720CE4ECD7D2@???.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Respect and trust are things not easily earned from people we almost never
see. It?s not difficult for me to respect and trust my wife having lived
with her for 42 years. Politicians and BoD members aren?t like that. We
often barely know them so any decision about who to vote for or who to trust
when conflicts arise is generally something of a gamble.
But in this case the "explanation letter" issued by AMSAT was signed by some
people I've trusted for years, especially Dr. Tom Clark and Keith Baker
whose signatures lend considerable gravitas to the response.
That said, I?m satisfied with the response and have made up my mind about
the choices in the coming election I intend to make. I hope you all have
too. And for those non-members who have kicked up considerable chaff here on
the -BB, I invite you to turn your angst, whatever it might be, into action
by joining AMSAT and have a vote in the matter. Otherwise, you?re just
ranting with into the wind for no reason other than to hear your own voice?
https://www.amsat.org/join-amsat/ <https://www.amsat.org/join-amsat/>
Jeff, KE9V
AMSAT 28350
------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 07:23:51 -0700
From: Michelle Thompson <mountain.michelle@?????.???>
To: David Swanson <dave@?????????????.???>
Cc: AMSAT BB <amsat-bb@?????.???>
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] AMSAT Member Mailing list
Message-ID:
<CACvjz2U4M0XDpWM9L9-fr27vxJ6FaT8iGJHvf98U39SX4Zk7=Q@????.?????.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
No database went anywhere except to candidates. This is allowed in the
bylaws.
Then, an automated bulk mail printing server was used. I recommended the
company to Brennan Price for this year's mailing. Good service,
inexpensive.
Return addresses don't magically transfer information.
-Michelle W5NYV
On Mon, Jul 13, 2020, 04:32 David Swanson <dave@?????????????.???> wrote:
> Spin Spin Spin. The simple truth here is Director Thompson took the AMSAT
> member database, and handed it over to a 3rd party competing entity for the
> purpose of solicitation. I know I did not give ORI my home address, yet ORI
> sent me a letter. This was a violation of my privacy, and for AMSAT
> members living in the EU, this was a violation of the law. Any attempt to
> explain this away is just more lies and deceit from Director Thompson about
> the shady practices they have engaged in over the past few years. As I keep
> saying, this isn't a one time thing, this is a pattern of
> reprehensible behavior that is unbecoming of an elected position and this
> community. Director Thompson and Director Stoddard should resign.
>
> -Dave, KG5CCI
>
> On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 5:33 AM Michelle Thompson via AMSAT-BB <
> amsat-bb@?????.???> wrote:
>
>> Yes, I can.
>>
>> That part of Clayton's letter is wrong and has been repeatedly clarified
>> before. Including at the 2019 annual board meeting, where Tom Clark asked
>> me about it, as part of the record.
>>
>> Clayton Coleman was secretary in 2019.
>>
>> He ran the election.
>>
>> He decided that candidate statements were limited in length to 350 words,
>> would be subject to editorial control by AMSAT, and could not include
>> links. These new rules were given to us right before the 4th of July
>> holiday with a deadline of the 7th.
>>
>> This is different than any election before, where statements went directly
>> to the printer from the candidate, were not limited in length, and no one
>> from AMSAT leadership (who might be running for reelection themselves) had
>> any control over the content of their challengers' statements.
>>
>> We got these rules right before ballots went out. We (four challengers)
>> already had normal-sized statements on the web and they had been up six
>> weeks at that point. Those were the ones we wanted to use, and link to.
>>
>> We knew that as candidates, we had the right to request the mailing list,
>> and send our own statements, independent of the ballot.
>>
>> I requested the address list and got the DBASE4 export.
>>
>> Bruce Perens had already written a letter of support and distributed it
>> widely on the web. It introduced us and included our four full bios and
>> statements.
>>
>> I asked Bruce if we could use his letter in the mailing. He said yes.
>> Since
>> he was President of Open Research Institute at the time, he wanted the
>> return address to not be his private home address, but a business address.
>> That was ORI's address. He was the author of the endorsement, so I used
>> his
>> preferred return address.
>>
>> I converted the DBASE4 to a more useful format, fixed the 50 or so
>> undeliverable addresses, and found an inexpensive printer. Then I sent the
>> letter from Bruce to the printer, with the bios and statements.
>>
>> That turned out to be a good thing. Bios and statements were not included
>> with the ballots mailed out, at all.
>>
>> If we had not sent the letter, then name recognition would be the primary
>> factor. We were running against well-known people.
>>
>> We complained about this. It was unusual departure from the past and
>> seemed
>> set up to let leadership benefit from being incumbents.
>>
>> The original proposal from Clayton was for an electronic only ballot.
>> Patrick said that the bylaws were a bit clunky here and it did need to be
>> mailed out on paper. Paper was required.
>>
>> This is a big reason why I made a motion at our one board meeting, in
>> March, for a bylaws committee.
>>
>> This bylaw isn't hard to fix. There's lots of examples out there of
>> organizations doing electronic voting with working published bylaws.
>>
>> Bruce made it very clear, when the incumbents stirred up the pot about the
>> return address, that it was an endorsement from him, this was commonly
>> done
>> in political campaigns, and it would be grossly improper for me to use
>> AMSATs return address because that would make it look like Bruce was
>> speaking for or was from AMSAT. That was not going to happen. *That* would
>> be improper.
>>
>> No one candidate wanted their personal address used as a return address.
>> We
>> were mailing this as a slate and splitting the cost. We didn't have time
>> or
>> funds to make an organization or rent a box for one letter on short
>> notice.
>> The printer required a real return address.
>>
>> No one had the address list except the candidates. Namely me because I
>> contracted the printer and handled the DBASE4 address conversion. That is
>> a
>> neat story in and of itself,, for another time.
>>
>> Bruce only sent the text to me and chipped in some money for postage.
>>
>> The printing was automated in Van Nuys, CA.
>>
>> All of this is known to Clayton Coleman and his friends on the board that
>> signed the statement from this week. It has been explained by Bruce
>> publicly, and by me several times on social media. Tom Clark brought it up
>> at the 2019 annual board meeting because of the return address
>> pot-stirring. I explained it there too. Like I said, it's on the record.
>>
>> I think insinuating the addresses were mishandled is a deliberate twisting
>> of honest efforts to scramble to get uncensored candidate statements out
>> to
>> voters on short notice. We just didn't have a lot of time, and Bruce was
>> very generous in writing a cover letter.
>>
>> Again, candidates are allowed the use of the mailing lists for election
>> purposes.
>>
>> So, no, there was no breach. Clayton knows all this.
>>
>> Saying it the way he did is a cheap shot at me, Patrick, Bruce Perens, and
>> ORI.
>>
>> -Michelle W5NYV
>>
>> On Sun, Jul 12, 2020, 19:11 Kevin via AMSAT-BB <amsat-bb@?????.???>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > Hello All,
>> >
>> > In a previous email to the BB I posted the link to the letter we all
>> > received as members.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
https://www.amsat.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/20200710_AMSAT_Lead
ership_Explains_Legal_Expenses.pdf
>> >
>> > I was re-reading it and something caught my eye that I had missed
>> before.
>> >
>> > "AMSAT did not provide a copy of its membership mailing addresses to
>> > Open Research Institute."
>> >
>> > Just how was our mailing list compromised? This seems like a serious
>> > breech of security, was this a hack? was any other information lost?
>> > was it ever found out how it happened? is our mailing list as they say
>> > "out in the wind"?
>> >
>> > Michelle could you possibly check from the ORI side and backtrack how
>> > ORI came into possession of the AMSAT mailing list, was it something
>> > that was procured online?
>> >
>> > AMSAT needs to follow up on this privacy issue and report back what it
>> > found and any steps that were taken to prevent this from happening in
>> > the future.
>> >
>> >
>> > I look forward to an answer
>> >
>> > 73 Kevin WA7FWF #19623
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
>> > to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
>> Opinions
>> > expressed
>> > are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
>> > AMSAT-NA.
>> > Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
>> program!
>> > Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>> >
>> _______________________________________________
>> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
>> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
>> Opinions expressed
>> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
>> AMSAT-NA.
>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
>> Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>>
>
------------------------------
Subject: Digest Footer
_______________________________________________
Sent via amsat-bb@?????.???.
AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide
without requiring membership. Opinions expressed
are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
AMSAT-NA.
Not an AMSAT member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
------------------------------
End of AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol 15, Issue 242
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