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CX2SA > SATDIG 13.07.20 18:40l 1773 Lines 68213 Bytes #999 (0) @ WW
BID : AMSATBB15243
Read: GUEST
Subj: AMSAT-BB-digest V15 243
Path: IW8PGT<IZ3LSV<IR1UAW<IK1NHL<CX2SA
Sent: 200713/1634Z @:CX2SA.SAL.URY.SOAM #:34884 [Salto] FBB7.00e $:AMSATBB15243
From: CX2SA@CX2SA.SAL.URY.SOAM
To : SATDIG@WW
Today's Topics:
1. Re: Enough of this! (Michael Walker)
2. Re: Gravitas (John Brier)
3. Back after a 2 yr absence (Rafael Pena)
4. Reading is fundamental (Peter)
5. Re: Gravitas (Bob Hammond)
6. Re: Members Please Read (Greg)
7. Re: AMSAT Member Mailing list (Brian Karcher)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 10:32:12 -0400
From: Michael Walker <va3mw@??????????.???>
To: Glenn Miller AA5PK <aa5pk@??????????.???>
Cc: AMSAT <amsat-bb@?????.???>, Meeko Kittika
<meekoblue@???????.??.??>
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Enough of this!
Message-ID:
<CA+33ts4Gt8uVe-cMyaHp6NR=sMNHLvumcPk=8cJZLPiq64qkxA@????.?????.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
There always is the delete key.
However, as an AMSAT member, I welcome this vehicle to be able to follow
what is going on.
Mike va3mw
On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 10:18 AM Glenn Miller AA5PK via AMSAT-BB <
amsat-bb@?????.???> wrote:
> Couldn't agree more, Meeko.
>
> Glenn
> AA5PK
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Meeko Kittika via AMSAT-BB
> Sent: Monday, July 13, 2020 1:11 AM
> To: amsat-bb@?????.???
> Subject: [amsat-bb] Enough of this!
>
> I'm from Amsat-UK land and completely disgusted with this pantomime.
>
> I'm un-subscribing because I came here to discuss and learn about amateur
> satellites with like minded individuals. I was
> wrong apparently. What I'm witnessing is a mess. Sort yourselves out! You
> do a disservice to the hobby.
>
> Meeko
> M0FVD
> _______________________________________________
> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions
> expressed
> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
> AMSAT-NA.
> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
> Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>
> _______________________________________________
> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions
> expressed
> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
> AMSAT-NA.
> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
> Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 10:35:29 -0400
From: John Brier <johnbrier@?????.???>
To: Jeff Davis <ke9v@???.???>
Cc: AMSAT-BB <amsat-bb@?????.???>
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Gravitas
Message-ID:
<CALn0fKPEJ7HdoiB_bF+87aJHx_bT-=im3ZAWOmEQ_aBcV6XaaQ@????.?????.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
It might be too late to get a ballot if you aren't already a member.
Still worth becoming a member though!
73, John Brier KG4AKV
On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 10:29 AM Jeff Davis via AMSAT-BB
<amsat-bb@?????.???> wrote:
>
> Respect and trust are things not easily earned from people we almost never
see. It?s not difficult for me to respect and trust my wife having lived
with her for 42 years. Politicians and BoD members aren?t like that. We
often barely know them so any decision about who to vote for or who to trust
when conflicts arise is generally something of a gamble.
>
> But in this case the "explanation letter" issued by AMSAT was signed by
some people I've trusted for years, especially Dr. Tom Clark and Keith Baker
whose signatures lend considerable gravitas to the response.
>
> That said, I?m satisfied with the response and have made up my mind about
the choices in the coming election I intend to make. I hope you all have
too. And for those non-members who have kicked up considerable chaff here on
the -BB, I invite you to turn your angst, whatever it might be, into action
by joining AMSAT and have a vote in the matter. Otherwise, you?re just
ranting with into the wind for no reason other than to hear your own voice?
>
> https://www.amsat.org/join-amsat/ <https://www.amsat.org/join-amsat/>
>
>
> Jeff, KE9V
> AMSAT 28350
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions
expressed
> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
AMSAT-NA.
> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
> Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 14:43:33 +0000
From: Rafael Pena <pinoleronica@???????.???>
To: "amsat-bb@?????.???? <amsat-bb@?????.???>
Subject: [amsat-bb] Back after a 2 yr absence
Message-ID:
<DM5PR03MB3228CE8E0909C1E027EB6C30C6600@?????????????.????????.????.???????.??
?>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Saludos Armando. Pues buscate un lector ( "reader") para que dijieras
todo lo que ha pasado en este tiempo de ausencia....espero escucharte en los
sat algun dia desde Washington, DC
Rafael / NN3RP
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 01:57:45 -0400
From: Armando Mercado <am25544@?????.???>
To: amsat-bb@?????.???
Subject: [amsat-bb] Back after a 2 yr absence
Message-ID:
<CAOgooFkH6TK5L=zMEvg7qis17gh-QOz1T2UVT3361i1=SNPN_Q@????.?????.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
I recently renewed my membership. Looks like I have a lot of catching up
to do.
Armando, N8IGJ
------------------------------
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 14:44:39 +0000 (UTC)
From: Peter <pgprendergast@?????.???>
To: "amsat-bb@?????.???? <amsat-bb@?????.???>
Subject: [amsat-bb] Reading is fundamental
Message-ID: <1662986521.829843.1594651479690@????.?????.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
So, I have spent nearly four hours READING all that is publicly available
including the blogs and myriad emails available here or referenced with
linksfrom here.?
I'll go to the end of the story then back up.
After reading all that is cited above, its clear to me that the two new
board members have exaggerated greatly the degree of wrong doingon the part
of the board.??
It also seems clear that the board agreed to spend 10k to defend themselves
against potential legal action from these two board members who then turn
around and claim thesemonies were spent irresponsibly (see the initial email
regarding Leadership).? These funds were spent, in the main, to seek advice
on how to proceed, and to create new, formerly nonexistent AMSAT polices to
guidefuture administrative conduct.? This latter goal was apparently long
over due and proprietous.
However, its also clear the legal fees exceeded the initially authorized
amount of 10k? ?This overage is understandable, dealing with issues like
this you tendto get tunnel vision trying to sort this all out and within a
few days you run over the limit.? I'm not even sure this overage is in any
way improper? Had it been 50k well, yes, but 4 or 5k is really not a major
issue.Additionally, it seems, again from all the emails that no formal vote
was held to authorize these additional monies.? We're leftto conclude that
casual conversations were had that authorized these funds.? No one has said
this that I could find, perhaps?some clarity on that point would help?
When the treasurer says no dues were used, I think that is misleading, the
point of concern wasn't what pot the monies came from but instead thattheir
were resources used that could have been used productively elsewhere had
their been tighter supervision of the legal activity.? Again, its easyto run
over with lawyers and not realize it, this overage doesn't rise to the level
or even close to it, of criminal behavior.? Describing this overage inthose
terms is disgraceful and reckless
So, the board was initially off put by the blogs I read.? That is not an
unreasonable response.? Could/should more dialogue have?been engaged in??
Why yes it should have.? This absence of reported deep dive dialogue is
troubling, but may or may not havelead to a different outcome. Regardless,
more dialogue should have happened, the board's credibility would have been
enhanced?by trying to sort out what the new directors wanted.? I fault the
board for not doing this, or if they did, I didn't see it in these writings.
I am left with the impression that the two board members are folks who
thrive on confrontation while spinning,? in these emailsup here, that they
are really interested in "transparency"? I am convinced this is not the
case.? I draw all my conclusions on the postings here and thelinks to other
cites contained within, and the blogs found by the same means.
I feel that Stoddard and Thomspson should resign immediately,? for in
reading all this, I feel they have exaggerated the degree of misconduct and
caused considerableharm to the reputation of AMSAT in the process,? as is
evident from the emails and posting on this BBS.
To the credit of Stoddard and Thompson, it appears that AMSAT has not been
run, from an administrative side of things, in a professional manner.
Missing HR policiesand no evidence I can find of consultation with business
leaders on how to operate a complex organization, is deeply bothersome.?
Further, an outside review is totally appropriate here.? Consider, that had
their been policies in place before all of this happened, lawyers would not
have been needed.What OTHER policies are missing?? What procedures are in
place to audit the organization?? Are the books reviewed by an outside CPA
for instance?The credibility of AMSAT needs to be bolstered and having an
expert consultant come in and review all of these potential areas is
apparently way over due.?That AMSAT lacks proper HR policies after this many
years in business is deeply troubling and suggests a more professional
operating standard is desperately needed here.
Before you pontificate or provide character references for the current board
you have an obligation to READ all this stuff, its wearisome, tedious and
takes a long time.I read it, YOU should read it BEFORE you go off and make
draconian statements.? .
PeterW2PPLife Member
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 07:49:01 -0700
From: Bob Hammond <propgrinder@?????.???>
To: amsat-bb@?????.???
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Gravitas
Message-ID:
<CAKoB7Oo+JLf-F5XKLfuAQ7FyLdcWnXu3NRHePtLCVvdAENrjsw@????.?????.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
I agree. I just rejoined AMSAT as a Life Member.
Bob W7OTJ
Member # 33378
On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 7:29 AM Jeff Davis via AMSAT-BB <amsat-bb@?????.???>
wrote:
> Respect and trust are things not easily earned from people we almost never
> see. It?s not difficult for me to respect and trust my wife having lived
> with her for 42 years. Politicians and BoD members aren?t like that. We
> often barely know them so any decision about who to vote for or who to
> trust when conflicts arise is generally something of a gamble.
>
> But in this case the "explanation letter" issued by AMSAT was signed by
> some people I've trusted for years, especially Dr. Tom Clark and Keith
> Baker whose signatures lend considerable gravitas to the response.
>
> That said, I?m satisfied with the response and have made up my mind about
> the choices in the coming election I intend to make. I hope you all have
> too. And for those non-members who have kicked up considerable chaff here
> on the -BB, I invite you to turn your angst, whatever it might be, into
> action by joining AMSAT and have a vote in the matter. Otherwise, you?re
> just ranting with into the wind for no reason other than to hear your own
> voice?
>
> https://www.amsat.org/join-amsat/ <https://www.amsat.org/join-amsat/>
>
>
> Jeff, KE9V
> AMSAT 28350
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions
> expressed
> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
> AMSAT-NA.
> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
> Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 10:49:56 -0400
From: Greg <almetco@???????.???>
To: amsat-bb@?????.???
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Members Please Read
Message-ID: <E7E93051-9A38-41FC-AAA8-ACD745F8670C@???????.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Again, after being absent for a few years than rejoining AMSAT last month,
this is disheartening.
BUT, what is really disheartening is that the directors say they are here
for the members. Well, if that is the case and you give a crap about the
members then give us the BB back and quit monopolizing it with your remarks
against the others.
Put you big people pants on and deal with it via telephone, teleconference
etc the way many of us in the C suite had to do in the ?real world." Then
make it a campaign item WHEN elections roll around.
The ironic part is if you ignore my request and other members request asking
for this to end on the board, then you really don't care about the members
and showed your true colors.
Greg
N3MVF
On Jul 13, 2020, at 12:40 AM, Kenneth P Alexander via AMSAT-BB
<amsat-bb@?????.???> wrote:
Sure Chad,
I'll consider supporting Amsat again as soon as this mess is cleaned up and
everyone is satisfied with the outcome, whichever way it goes.
Ken, VE3HLS
So Phisai, Thailand
Blog: bueng-ken.com
On Mon, Jul 13, 2020, 08:58 Chad KG0MW via AMSAT-BB <amsat-bb@?????.???>
wrote:
> Joseph you are right. As much as the BoD needs to promote AMSAT, we as
> members need to stand up promote AMSAT and show our support. The more
> support we show, hopefully the sooner we can get back to actual
> constructive conversation.
>
> Chad
>
>
> ?On 7/12/20, 4:22 PM, "AMSAT-BB on behalf of Joseph Armbruster via
> AMSAT-BB" <amsat-bb-bounces@?????.??? on behalf of amsat-bb@?????.???>
> wrote:
>
> Brad,
>
> What transparency and progress has been brought to the organization
> from the members that you speak of? Specifically? It appears that
> since they were voted in, everyone in the organization is now walking
> on egg-shells. The BB is now plastered with emails asking which words
> mean what feelings, name calling and chasing after the organization
> using whatever legal means the wizards-of-smart can conjure up all in
> the name of almighty, all-righeous, '''transparency'''. It all seems
> rather insincere and unproductive to me. People like this should do
> the organization a favor, and leave, run their own competing
> organization and take whatever people and dollars happen to follow
> them.
>
> I would honestly like to return to the ARISSat-1 days, where it was
> just full-speed-ahead engineering and not all this talk all about
> 'saving AMSAT' and ORI garbage. All this ORI promotion on the BB, is
> absolute garbage. No rational AMSAT member should be OK with that,
> especially from an AMSAT BOD member. ORI is a separate, competing
> organization and their bylaws are..... telling. If AMSATs bylaws were
> ever amended to be anything like those, you can kiss your membership
> goodbye, ref: https://openresearch.institute/organization-documents.
> Their bylaws literally say "Membership shall consist of the Board of
> Directors.". Quite an Open organization, indeed!
>
> But I digress... The more of these kinds of people you vote in, the
> more the organization is going to be hurt, guaranteed. Because not
> only is nothing going to get done, obviously some people don't want to
> work with them for whatever-reasons and THAT actually is important.
> And, the reasons are important too. Have you wondered why...? I do!
> As a small business owner, when I hear such-and-such doesn't want to
> work with so-and-so, I immediately want to ask "What happened"? From
> what the email traffic looks like, it seems like you may have to worry
> about legal action for everything you say or do around them or, maybe
> there was some pre-election history that most of the people that voted
> for them, didn't know about. I have no clue, but this all does make
> me wonder.
>
> Either way, it seems like the state of things right now is Much Worst
> than it was prior-to the last election, so... Not sure why anyone
> would want more of this. For me, the socio-political environment is
> just as important as the engi-nerding portion.. At the very least,
> BOD members need to be promoting the organization they are on the
> board of and noone should have to worry about legal retaliation over
> every little thing.
>
> Joseph Armbruster
> KJ4JIO
>
> On Sun, Jul 12, 2020 at 3:58 PM Brad Smith via AMSAT-BB
> <amsat-bb@?????.???> wrote:
>>
>> If you care about the AMSAT organization continuing to help hams in
> space communications, please read and reread Patrick's and Michelle's
> explanations. They layout exactly what happened. Now we learn that the
> expenditure is over 16k. That is 363 memberships, if this retired
> engineer's math is correct. This is money wasted to beat down two members
> who want transparency and progress. This was not right. Our money was
> wasted! I am anxious for the election.
>>
>> Again, I ask that members do not resign over this. That helps nobody
> and hurts out hobby, which has already taken a huge hit. Solve this with
> your voting privilege.
>>
>> 73 Brad KC9UQR
>> _______________________________________________
>> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum
> available
>> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
> Opinions expressed
>> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official
> views of AMSAT-NA.
>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
> program!
>> Subscription settings:
> https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
> _______________________________________________
> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
> Opinions expressed
> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views
> of AMSAT-NA.
> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
> program!
> Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
> _______________________________________________
> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions
> expressed
> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
> AMSAT-NA.
> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
> Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>
_______________________________________________
Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions
expressed
are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
AMSAT-NA.
Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 10:59:18 -0400 (EDT)
From: Brian Karcher <kg5gjt@???.???>
To: amsat-bb@?????.???? amsat-bb-request@?????.???
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] AMSAT Member Mailing list
Message-ID: <1984320037.797478.1594652358770@???????.???.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
I thought being a member of AMSAT was about keeping amateur radio in space,
learning about satellites and for some of us working amateur radio
satellites in space. Since the last election AMSAT seems to be about
nothing but politics and misinformation. In my opinion AMSAT was a lot more
fun to be apart of before the last election. All the politics and
misinformation drives people away from AMSAT and is not good for the
organization. I have been told in the past by one of the new board members
that all of this is necessary for change to happen. I don't see that AMSAT
has to go through some fundamental change or movement. I am tired of the
new AMSAT since the last election. I am seriously considering not renewing
my membership and I know plenty of other that are considering the same.
When will all of this end so we can start enjoying AMSAT again and working
satellites?
Brian D. Karcher
KG5GJT
> On July 13, 2020 at 8:55 AM amsat-bb-request@?????.??? wrote:
>
>
> Send AMSAT-BB mailing list submissions to
> amsat-bb@?????.???
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> amsat-bb-request@?????.???
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> amsat-bb-owner@?????.???
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of AMSAT-BB digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Back after a 2 yr absence (Armando Mercado)
> 2. Re: AMSAT Member Mailing list (Michelle Thompson)
> 3. Re: AMSAT Member Mailing list (David Swanson)
> 4. Re: AMSAT Member Mailing list (Hans BX2ABT)
> 5. AMSAT Member Mailing list (Bruce Perens)
> 6. Re: AMSAT Member Mailing list (Bruce Perens)
> 7. Re: AMSAT Member Mailing list (Bruce Perens)
> 8. Re: AMSAT Member Mailing list (Bruce Perens)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 01:57:45 -0400
> From: Armando Mercado <am25544@?????.???>
> To: amsat-bb@?????.???
> Subject: [amsat-bb] Back after a 2 yr absence
> Message-ID:
> <CAOgooFkH6TK5L=zMEvg7qis17gh-QOz1T2UVT3361i1=SNPN_Q@????.?????.???>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> I recently renewed my membership. Looks like I have a lot of catching up
> to do.
> Armando, N8IGJ
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 03:29:49 -0700
> From: Michelle Thompson <mountain.michelle@?????.???>
> To: Kevin <wa7fwf@?????.???>
> Cc: AMSAT BB <amsat-bb@?????.???>
> Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] AMSAT Member Mailing list
> Message-ID:
> <CACvjz2U2fCYU4r8fLYE49HG80VHCRh9_LyW-5QQ5JP-cdNkUsA@????.?????.???>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> Yes, I can.
>
> That part of Clayton's letter is wrong and has been repeatedly clarified
> before. Including at the 2019 annual board meeting, where Tom Clark asked
> me about it, as part of the record.
>
> Clayton Coleman was secretary in 2019.
>
> He ran the election.
>
> He decided that candidate statements were limited in length to 350 words,
> would be subject to editorial control by AMSAT, and could not include
> links. These new rules were given to us right before the 4th of July
> holiday with a deadline of the 7th.
>
> This is different than any election before, where statements went directly
> to the printer from the candidate, were not limited in length, and no one
> from AMSAT leadership (who might be running for reelection themselves) had
> any control over the content of their challengers' statements.
>
> We got these rules right before ballots went out. We (four challengers)
> already had normal-sized statements on the web and they had been up six
> weeks at that point. Those were the ones we wanted to use, and link to.
>
> We knew that as candidates, we had the right to request the mailing list,
> and send our own statements, independent of the ballot.
>
> I requested the address list and got the DBASE4 export.
>
> Bruce Perens had already written a letter of support and distributed it
> widely on the web. It introduced us and included our four full bios and
> statements.
>
> I asked Bruce if we could use his letter in the mailing. He said yes. Since
> he was President of Open Research Institute at the time, he wanted the
> return address to not be his private home address, but a business address.
> That was ORI's address. He was the author of the endorsement, so I used his
> preferred return address.
>
> I converted the DBASE4 to a more useful format, fixed the 50 or so
> undeliverable addresses, and found an inexpensive printer. Then I sent the
> letter from Bruce to the printer, with the bios and statements.
>
> That turned out to be a good thing. Bios and statements were not included
> with the ballots mailed out, at all.
>
> If we had not sent the letter, then name recognition would be the primary
> factor. We were running against well-known people.
>
> We complained about this. It was unusual departure from the past and seemed
> set up to let leadership benefit from being incumbents.
>
> The original proposal from Clayton was for an electronic only ballot.
> Patrick said that the bylaws were a bit clunky here and it did need to be
> mailed out on paper. Paper was required.
>
> This is a big reason why I made a motion at our one board meeting, in
> March, for a bylaws committee.
>
> This bylaw isn't hard to fix. There's lots of examples out there of
> organizations doing electronic voting with working published bylaws.
>
> Bruce made it very clear, when the incumbents stirred up the pot about the
> return address, that it was an endorsement from him, this was commonly done
> in political campaigns, and it would be grossly improper for me to use
> AMSATs return address because that would make it look like Bruce was
> speaking for or was from AMSAT. That was not going to happen. *That* would
> be improper.
>
> No one candidate wanted their personal address used as a return address. We
> were mailing this as a slate and splitting the cost. We didn't have time or
> funds to make an organization or rent a box for one letter on short notice.
> The printer required a real return address.
>
> No one had the address list except the candidates. Namely me because I
> contracted the printer and handled the DBASE4 address conversion. That is a
> neat story in and of itself,, for another time.
>
> Bruce only sent the text to me and chipped in some money for postage.
>
> The printing was automated in Van Nuys, CA.
>
> All of this is known to Clayton Coleman and his friends on the board that
> signed the statement from this week. It has been explained by Bruce
> publicly, and by me several times on social media. Tom Clark brought it up
> at the 2019 annual board meeting because of the return address
> pot-stirring. I explained it there too. Like I said, it's on the record.
>
> I think insinuating the addresses were mishandled is a deliberate twisting
> of honest efforts to scramble to get uncensored candidate statements out to
> voters on short notice. We just didn't have a lot of time, and Bruce was
> very generous in writing a cover letter.
>
> Again, candidates are allowed the use of the mailing lists for election
> purposes.
>
> So, no, there was no breach. Clayton knows all this.
>
> Saying it the way he did is a cheap shot at me, Patrick, Bruce Perens, and
> ORI.
>
> -Michelle W5NYV
>
> On Sun, Jul 12, 2020, 19:11 Kevin via AMSAT-BB <amsat-bb@?????.???> wrote:
>
> > Hello All,
> >
> > In a previous email to the BB I posted the link to the letter we all
> > received as members.
> >
> >
> >
https://www.amsat.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/20200710_AMSAT_Lead
ership_Explains_Legal_Expenses.pdf
> >
> > I was re-reading it and something caught my eye that I had missed before.
> >
> > "AMSAT did not provide a copy of its membership mailing addresses to
> > Open Research Institute."
> >
> > Just how was our mailing list compromised? This seems like a serious
> > breech of security, was this a hack? was any other information lost?
> > was it ever found out how it happened? is our mailing list as they say
> > "out in the wind"?
> >
> > Michelle could you possibly check from the ORI side and backtrack how
> > ORI came into possession of the AMSAT mailing list, was it something
> > that was procured online?
> >
> > AMSAT needs to follow up on this privacy issue and report back what it
> > found and any steps that were taken to prevent this from happening in
> > the future.
> >
> >
> > I look forward to an answer
> >
> > 73 Kevin WA7FWF #19623
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
> > to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions
> > expressed
> > are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
> > AMSAT-NA.
> > Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
> > Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 06:32:38 -0500
> From: David Swanson <dave@?????????????.???>
> To: Michelle Thompson <mountain.michelle@?????.???>
> Cc: AMSAT BB <amsat-bb@?????.???>
> Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] AMSAT Member Mailing list
> Message-ID:
> <CANq+eyWHQ8o369h6=fqi1PJLWuMGP-1dTVj5Oej2CstAPY8S-w@????.?????.???>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> Spin Spin Spin. The simple truth here is Director Thompson took the AMSAT
> member database, and handed it over to a 3rd party competing entity for the
> purpose of solicitation. I know I did not give ORI my home address, yet ORI
> sent me a letter. This was a violation of my privacy, and for AMSAT
> members living in the EU, this was a violation of the law. Any attempt to
> explain this away is just more lies and deceit from Director Thompson about
> the shady practices they have engaged in over the past few years. As I keep
> saying, this isn't a one time thing, this is a pattern of
> reprehensible behavior that is unbecoming of an elected position and this
> community. Director Thompson and Director Stoddard should resign.
>
> -Dave, KG5CCI
>
> On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 5:33 AM Michelle Thompson via AMSAT-BB <
> amsat-bb@?????.???> wrote:
>
> > Yes, I can.
> >
> > That part of Clayton's letter is wrong and has been repeatedly clarified
> > before. Including at the 2019 annual board meeting, where Tom Clark asked
> > me about it, as part of the record.
> >
> > Clayton Coleman was secretary in 2019.
> >
> > He ran the election.
> >
> > He decided that candidate statements were limited in length to 350 words,
> > would be subject to editorial control by AMSAT, and could not include
> > links. These new rules were given to us right before the 4th of July
> > holiday with a deadline of the 7th.
> >
> > This is different than any election before, where statements went directly
> > to the printer from the candidate, were not limited in length, and no one
> > from AMSAT leadership (who might be running for reelection themselves) had
> > any control over the content of their challengers' statements.
> >
> > We got these rules right before ballots went out. We (four challengers)
> > already had normal-sized statements on the web and they had been up six
> > weeks at that point. Those were the ones we wanted to use, and link to.
> >
> > We knew that as candidates, we had the right to request the mailing list,
> > and send our own statements, independent of the ballot.
> >
> > I requested the address list and got the DBASE4 export.
> >
> > Bruce Perens had already written a letter of support and distributed it
> > widely on the web. It introduced us and included our four full bios and
> > statements.
> >
> > I asked Bruce if we could use his letter in the mailing. He said yes.
Since
> > he was President of Open Research Institute at the time, he wanted the
> > return address to not be his private home address, but a business address.
> > That was ORI's address. He was the author of the endorsement, so I used
his
> > preferred return address.
> >
> > I converted the DBASE4 to a more useful format, fixed the 50 or so
> > undeliverable addresses, and found an inexpensive printer. Then I sent the
> > letter from Bruce to the printer, with the bios and statements.
> >
> > That turned out to be a good thing. Bios and statements were not included
> > with the ballots mailed out, at all.
> >
> > If we had not sent the letter, then name recognition would be the primary
> > factor. We were running against well-known people.
> >
> > We complained about this. It was unusual departure from the past and
seemed
> > set up to let leadership benefit from being incumbents.
> >
> > The original proposal from Clayton was for an electronic only ballot.
> > Patrick said that the bylaws were a bit clunky here and it did need to be
> > mailed out on paper. Paper was required.
> >
> > This is a big reason why I made a motion at our one board meeting, in
> > March, for a bylaws committee.
> >
> > This bylaw isn't hard to fix. There's lots of examples out there of
> > organizations doing electronic voting with working published bylaws.
> >
> > Bruce made it very clear, when the incumbents stirred up the pot about the
> > return address, that it was an endorsement from him, this was commonly
done
> > in political campaigns, and it would be grossly improper for me to use
> > AMSATs return address because that would make it look like Bruce was
> > speaking for or was from AMSAT. That was not going to happen. *That* would
> > be improper.
> >
> > No one candidate wanted their personal address used as a return address.
We
> > were mailing this as a slate and splitting the cost. We didn't have time
or
> > funds to make an organization or rent a box for one letter on short
notice.
> > The printer required a real return address.
> >
> > No one had the address list except the candidates. Namely me because I
> > contracted the printer and handled the DBASE4 address conversion. That
is a
> > neat story in and of itself,, for another time.
> >
> > Bruce only sent the text to me and chipped in some money for postage.
> >
> > The printing was automated in Van Nuys, CA.
> >
> > All of this is known to Clayton Coleman and his friends on the board that
> > signed the statement from this week. It has been explained by Bruce
> > publicly, and by me several times on social media. Tom Clark brought it up
> > at the 2019 annual board meeting because of the return address
> > pot-stirring. I explained it there too. Like I said, it's on the record.
> >
> > I think insinuating the addresses were mishandled is a deliberate twisting
> > of honest efforts to scramble to get uncensored candidate statements out
to
> > voters on short notice. We just didn't have a lot of time, and Bruce was
> > very generous in writing a cover letter.
> >
> > Again, candidates are allowed the use of the mailing lists for election
> > purposes.
> >
> > So, no, there was no breach. Clayton knows all this.
> >
> > Saying it the way he did is a cheap shot at me, Patrick, Bruce Perens, and
> > ORI.
> >
> > -Michelle W5NYV
> >
> > On Sun, Jul 12, 2020, 19:11 Kevin via AMSAT-BB <amsat-bb@?????.???> wrote:
> >
> > > Hello All,
> > >
> > > In a previous email to the BB I posted the link to the letter we all
> > > received as members.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
https://www.amsat.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/20200710_AMSAT_Lead
ership_Explains_Legal_Expenses.pdf
> > >
> > > I was re-reading it and something caught my eye that I had missed
before.
> > >
> > > "AMSAT did not provide a copy of its membership mailing addresses to
> > > Open Research Institute."
> > >
> > > Just how was our mailing list compromised? This seems like a serious
> > > breech of security, was this a hack? was any other information lost?
> > > was it ever found out how it happened? is our mailing list as they say
> > > "out in the wind"?
> > >
> > > Michelle could you possibly check from the ORI side and backtrack how
> > > ORI came into possession of the AMSAT mailing list, was it something
> > > that was procured online?
> > >
> > > AMSAT needs to follow up on this privacy issue and report back what it
> > > found and any steps that were taken to prevent this from happening in
> > > the future.
> > >
> > >
> > > I look forward to an answer
> > >
> > > 73 Kevin WA7FWF #19623
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
> > > to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
> > Opinions
> > > expressed
> > > are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
> > > AMSAT-NA.
> > > Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
> > program!
> > > Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
> > to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions
> > expressed
> > are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
> > AMSAT-NA.
> > Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
> > Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 20:02:25 +0800
> From: Hans BX2ABT <hans.bx2abt@???.?????.???>
> To: amsat-bb@?????.???
> Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] AMSAT Member Mailing list
> Message-ID: <4c8da5db-cddd-e51e-0b26-9142c1787528@???.?????.???>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
>
> On 7/13/20 7:32 PM, David Swanson via AMSAT-BB wrote:
> > Spin Spin Spin.
>
> I think this is the biggest problem in the world right now.
>
> People simply don't want to believe each other any more, or even
> entertain the thought that the "opponent" might be (partially) right or
> acting in good faith. Mistakes cannot be forgiven, because they are
> always made with malicious intent. And one's own actions are always
> right, because the other party is always wrong.
>
> The trenches are dug, the weapons are loaded: let's go to war.
>
> In the meantime the Russians give us Sputnik RS-44 (almost MEO), the
> Chinese shoot cool experiments into space (albeit with the quality of
> most stuff made in China) and the Germans achieve the first
> geo-stationary amateur payload. What does AMSAT-NA achieve? The world is
> already shaking its head when the USA are mentioned because of how it
> handles COVID-19. Now the amateur radio world laughs at how AMSAT-NA is
> handling itself. To quote your great leader: "So sad!"
>
> 73 de Hans (BX2ABT)
>
>
> P.S. not an AMSAT-NA member, just here to share and learn about
> satellites. Now ducking for incoming flak.
>
>
>
>
> > The simple truth here is Director Thompson took the AMSAT
> > member database, and handed it over to a 3rd party competing entity for
the
> > purpose of solicitation. I know I did not give ORI my home address, yet
ORI
> > sent me a letter. This was a violation of my privacy, and for AMSAT
> > members living in the EU, this was a violation of the law. Any attempt to
> > explain this away is just more lies and deceit from Director Thompson
about
> > the shady practices they have engaged in over the past few years. As I
keep
> > saying, this isn't a one time thing, this is a pattern of
> > reprehensible behavior that is unbecoming of an elected position and this
> > community. Director Thompson and Director Stoddard should resign.
> >
> > -Dave, KG5CCI
> >
> > On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 5:33 AM Michelle Thompson via AMSAT-BB <
> > amsat-bb@?????.???> wrote:
> >
> >> Yes, I can.
> >>
> >> That part of Clayton's letter is wrong and has been repeatedly clarified
> >> before. Including at the 2019 annual board meeting, where Tom Clark asked
> >> me about it, as part of the record.
> >>
> >> Clayton Coleman was secretary in 2019.
> >>
> >> He ran the election.
> >>
> >> He decided that candidate statements were limited in length to 350 words,
> >> would be subject to editorial control by AMSAT, and could not include
> >> links. These new rules were given to us right before the 4th of July
> >> holiday with a deadline of the 7th.
> >>
> >> This is different than any election before, where statements went
directly
> >> to the printer from the candidate, were not limited in length, and no one
> >> from AMSAT leadership (who might be running for reelection themselves)
had
> >> any control over the content of their challengers' statements.
> >>
> >> We got these rules right before ballots went out. We (four challengers)
> >> already had normal-sized statements on the web and they had been up six
> >> weeks at that point. Those were the ones we wanted to use, and link to.
> >>
> >> We knew that as candidates, we had the right to request the mailing list,
> >> and send our own statements, independent of the ballot.
> >>
> >> I requested the address list and got the DBASE4 export.
> >>
> >> Bruce Perens had already written a letter of support and distributed it
> >> widely on the web. It introduced us and included our four full bios and
> >> statements.
> >>
> >> I asked Bruce if we could use his letter in the mailing. He said yes.
Since
> >> he was President of Open Research Institute at the time, he wanted the
> >> return address to not be his private home address, but a business
address.
> >> That was ORI's address. He was the author of the endorsement, so I used
his
> >> preferred return address.
> >>
> >> I converted the DBASE4 to a more useful format, fixed the 50 or so
> >> undeliverable addresses, and found an inexpensive printer. Then I sent
the
> >> letter from Bruce to the printer, with the bios and statements.
> >>
> >> That turned out to be a good thing. Bios and statements were not included
> >> with the ballots mailed out, at all.
> >>
> >> If we had not sent the letter, then name recognition would be the primary
> >> factor. We were running against well-known people.
> >>
> >> We complained about this. It was unusual departure from the past and
seemed
> >> set up to let leadership benefit from being incumbents.
> >>
> >> The original proposal from Clayton was for an electronic only ballot.
> >> Patrick said that the bylaws were a bit clunky here and it did need to be
> >> mailed out on paper. Paper was required.
> >>
> >> This is a big reason why I made a motion at our one board meeting, in
> >> March, for a bylaws committee.
> >>
> >> This bylaw isn't hard to fix. There's lots of examples out there of
> >> organizations doing electronic voting with working published bylaws.
> >>
> >> Bruce made it very clear, when the incumbents stirred up the pot about
the
> >> return address, that it was an endorsement from him, this was commonly
done
> >> in political campaigns, and it would be grossly improper for me to use
> >> AMSATs return address because that would make it look like Bruce was
> >> speaking for or was from AMSAT. That was not going to happen. *That*
would
> >> be improper.
> >>
> >> No one candidate wanted their personal address used as a return
address. We
> >> were mailing this as a slate and splitting the cost. We didn't have
time or
> >> funds to make an organization or rent a box for one letter on short
notice.
> >> The printer required a real return address.
> >>
> >> No one had the address list except the candidates. Namely me because I
> >> contracted the printer and handled the DBASE4 address conversion. That
is a
> >> neat story in and of itself,, for another time.
> >>
> >> Bruce only sent the text to me and chipped in some money for postage.
> >>
> >> The printing was automated in Van Nuys, CA.
> >>
> >> All of this is known to Clayton Coleman and his friends on the board that
> >> signed the statement from this week. It has been explained by Bruce
> >> publicly, and by me several times on social media. Tom Clark brought it
up
> >> at the 2019 annual board meeting because of the return address
> >> pot-stirring. I explained it there too. Like I said, it's on the record.
> >>
> >> I think insinuating the addresses were mishandled is a deliberate
twisting
> >> of honest efforts to scramble to get uncensored candidate statements
out to
> >> voters on short notice. We just didn't have a lot of time, and Bruce was
> >> very generous in writing a cover letter.
> >>
> >> Again, candidates are allowed the use of the mailing lists for election
> >> purposes.
> >>
> >> So, no, there was no breach. Clayton knows all this.
> >>
> >> Saying it the way he did is a cheap shot at me, Patrick, Bruce Perens,
and
> >> ORI.
> >>
> >> -Michelle W5NYV
> >>
> >> On Sun, Jul 12, 2020, 19:11 Kevin via AMSAT-BB <amsat-bb@?????.???>
wrote:
> >>
> >>> Hello All,
> >>>
> >>> In a previous email to the BB I posted the link to the letter we all
> >>> received as members.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
https://www.amsat.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/20200710_AMSAT_Lead
ership_Explains_Legal_Expenses.pdf
> >>> I was re-reading it and something caught my eye that I had missed
before.
> >>>
> >>> "AMSAT did not provide a copy of its membership mailing addresses to
> >>> Open Research Institute."
> >>>
> >>> Just how was our mailing list compromised? This seems like a
serious
> >>> breech of security, was this a hack? was any other information lost?
> >>> was it ever found out how it happened? is our mailing list as they say
> >>> "out in the wind"?
> >>>
> >>> Michelle could you possibly check from the ORI side and backtrack how
> >>> ORI came into possession of the AMSAT mailing list, was it something
> >>> that was procured online?
> >>>
> >>> AMSAT needs to follow up on this privacy issue and report back what it
> >>> found and any steps that were taken to prevent this from happening in
> >>> the future.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I look forward to an answer
> >>>
> >>> 73 Kevin WA7FWF #19623
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
> >>> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
> >> Opinions
> >>> expressed
> >>> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
> >>> AMSAT-NA.
> >>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
> >> program!
> >>> Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
> >>>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
> >> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
Opinions
> >> expressed
> >> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
> >> AMSAT-NA.
> >> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
program!
> >> Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
> >>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
> > to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
Opinions expressed
> > are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
AMSAT-NA.
> > Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
> > Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
> >
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2020 20:33:38 -0700
> From: Bruce Perens <bruce@??????.???>
> To: AMSAT BB <amsat-bb@?????.???>
> Subject: [amsat-bb] AMSAT Member Mailing list
> Message-ID:
> <CAK2MWOs9Vjn46XSXiOt-a_453vZnObB5GsPF+RhZV7EuryDyLg@????.?????.???>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ---------
> From: Bruce Perens <bruce@??????.???>
> Date: Sun, Jul 12, 2020, 8:32 PM
> Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] AMSAT Member Mailing list
> To: Kevin <wa7fwf@?????.???>
>
>
> The mailing list was never compromised. But my HOME address, under "Open
> Research Institute" was used as the return address. This was a mistake and
> I didn't ask for it. I was, however, the author of the mailer, in which I
> introduced the candidates. The mailing was done by a bulk Mail company and
> did not involve me. I got one returned letter, informed someone responsible
> who had a right to see that address, and promptly forgot it.
>
> Thanks
>
> Bruce
>
> On Sun, Jul 12, 2020, 7:11 PM Kevin via AMSAT-BB <amsat-bb@?????.???> wrote:
>
> > Hello All,
> >
> > In a previous email to the BB I posted the link to the letter we all
> > received as members.
> >
> >
> >
https://www.amsat.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/20200710_AMSAT_Lead
ership_Explains_Legal_Expenses.pdf
> >
> > I was re-reading it and something caught my eye that I had missed before.
> >
> > "AMSAT did not provide a copy of its membership mailing addresses to
> > Open Research Institute."
> >
> > Just how was our mailing list compromised? This seems like a serious
> > breech of security, was this a hack? was any other information lost?
> > was it ever found out how it happened? is our mailing list as they say
> > "out in the wind"?
> >
> > Michelle could you possibly check from the ORI side and backtrack how
> > ORI came into possession of the AMSAT mailing list, was it something
> > that was procured online?
> >
> > AMSAT needs to follow up on this privacy issue and report back what it
> > found and any steps that were taken to prevent this from happening in
> > the future.
> >
> >
> > I look forward to an answer
> >
> > 73 Kevin WA7FWF #19623
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
> > to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions
> > expressed
> > are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
> > AMSAT-NA.
> > Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
> > Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2020 21:08:35 -0700
> From: Bruce Perens <bruce@??????.???>
> To: Kevin <wa7fwf@?????.???>, AMSAT BB <amsat-bb@?????.???>
> Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] AMSAT Member Mailing list
> Message-ID:
> <CAK2MWOskn_hhT4MpdhwQ2-nz7P44u+SUVuYvr-PYd7P8k3-ARw@????.?????.???>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> The candidates are allowed the use of the mailing list for their campaign.
> If you read the bylaws, they make it very clear. One of the candidates did
> all of the handling of the mailing list.
>
> Incidentally, the board was not aware that they had to give the mailing
> list to the candidates. This was something the candidates had to tell them,
> after I read the bylaws. Had the board run things the way they desired,
> only a board controlled 200 word statement would have reached you from the
> candidates, except for the incumbents, who have had free use of AMSAT's
> official publications to carry their opinions.
>
> In a more perfect world, the board would have known their own bylaws, or at
> least the secretary who was running the election would have read them.
>
> But in a more perfect world, two people were trying to reform the
> organization with not face quite this uphill a battle.
>
> Thanks
>
> Bruce
>
> On Sun, Jul 12, 2020, 9:00 PM Kevin <wa7fwf@?????.???> wrote:
>
> > Well how did the bulk mailing company get the AMSAT member mailing list if
> > AMSAT did not provide it?
> >
> > Kevin
> >
> >
> > On 7/12/2020 8:32 PM, Bruce Perens wrote:
> >
> > The mailing list was never compromised. But my HOME address, under "Open
> > Research Institute" was used as the return address. This was a mistake and
> > I didn't ask for it. I was, however, the author of the mailer, in which I
> > introduced the candidates. The mailing was done by a bulk Mail company and
> > did not involve me. I got one returned letter, informed someone
responsible
> > who had a right to see that address, and promptly forgot it.
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Bruce
> >
> > On Sun, Jul 12, 2020, 7:11 PM Kevin via AMSAT-BB <amsat-bb@?????.???>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Hello All,
> >>
> >> In a previous email to the BB I posted the link to the letter we all
> >> received as members.
> >>
> >>
> >>
https://www.amsat.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/20200710_AMSAT_Lead
ership_Explains_Legal_Expenses.pdf
> >>
> >> I was re-reading it and something caught my eye that I had missed before.
> >>
> >> "AMSAT did not provide a copy of its membership mailing addresses to
> >> Open Research Institute."
> >>
> >> Just how was our mailing list compromised? This seems like a serious
> >> breech of security, was this a hack? was any other information lost?
> >> was it ever found out how it happened? is our mailing list as they say
> >> "out in the wind"?
> >>
> >> Michelle could you possibly check from the ORI side and backtrack how
> >> ORI came into possession of the AMSAT mailing list, was it something
> >> that was procured online?
> >>
> >> AMSAT needs to follow up on this privacy issue and report back what it
> >> found and any steps that were taken to prevent this from happening in
> >> the future.
> >>
> >>
> >> I look forward to an answer
> >>
> >> 73 Kevin WA7FWF #19623
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
> >> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
> >> Opinions expressed
> >> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
> >> AMSAT-NA.
> >> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
program!
> >> Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
> >>
> >
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2020 21:48:21 -0700
> From: Bruce Perens <bruce@??????.???>
> To: Kevin <wa7fwf@?????.???>
> Cc: AMSAT BB <amsat-bb@?????.???>
> Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] AMSAT Member Mailing list
> Message-ID:
> <CAK2MWOu-sb=r3bn14TwkT37m_LVhhj+rGrMHM90O0O_nQkjYuw@????.?????.???>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> Kevin,
>
> No, I never saw the mailing list . I didn't do the mailing . I only wrote
> the content .
>
> So, why was I involved at all ?
>
> I won't say I'm the best tech evangelist you know, because that is for
> other people to judge. However, if you count the Open Source movement in
> software; the campaign for the elimination of the Morse code requirement
> for Amateur Radio licenses, which among other things I got on the front
> page of the New York Times, above the fold; My work to help elect a new
> ARRL board to end the confidentiality versus transparency debacle; And my
> global appearance for IBM's "Dear Tech", campaign, which got at least 50000
> television and Internet airplays;
>
> If you count all those things, I am probably the person you want
> introducing you as a candidate, and I might be a good person to tell you
> how to run a campaign.
>
> As it happens I wrote my own campaign, which I was going to put out under
> my own name, endorsing those candidates. And then the candidates chose to
> use it as their main campaign statement. This was very flattering and
> entirely their own choice.
>
> As an ARRL member, it was my right to participate in their election, and it
> is my right to participate in AMSAT's.
>
> Thanks
>
> Bruce K6BP
>
>
> On Sun, Jul 12, 2020, 9:29 PM Kevin <wa7fwf@?????.???> wrote:
>
> > Bruce,
> > So hang on a moment, you're telling me that the candidates are allowed
> > to use the mailing list for their campaign (fine), but rather than them
> > doing it themselves they turned the task over to you? So you were in
> > possession of the mailing list and then you turned it over to the bulk
> > mailing center when you authored the mailer?
> >
> > Kevin WA7FWF #19623
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 7/12/2020 9:08 PM, Bruce Perens wrote:
> >
> > The candidates are allowed the use of the mailing list for their campaign.
> > If you read the bylaws, they make it very clear. One of the candidates did
> > all of the handling of the mailing list.
> >
> > Incidentally, the board was not aware that they had to give the mailing
> > list to the candidates. This was something the candidates had to tell
them,
> > after I read the bylaws. Had the board run things the way they desired,
> > only a board controlled 200 word statement would have reached you from the
> > candidates, except for the incumbents, who have had free use of AMSAT's
> > official publications to carry their opinions.
> >
> > In a more perfect world, the board would have known their own bylaws, or
> > at least the secretary who was running the election would have read them.
> >
> > But in a more perfect world, two people were trying to reform the
> > organization with not face quite this uphill a battle.
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Bruce
> >
> > On Sun, Jul 12, 2020, 9:00 PM Kevin <wa7fwf@?????.???> wrote:
> >
> >> Well how did the bulk mailing company get the AMSAT member mailing list
> >> if AMSAT did not provide it?
> >>
> >> Kevin
> >>
> >>
> >> On 7/12/2020 8:32 PM, Bruce Perens wrote:
> >>
> >> The mailing list was never compromised. But my HOME address, under "Open
> >> Research Institute" was used as the return address. This was a mistake
and
> >> I didn't ask for it. I was, however, the author of the mailer, in which I
> >> introduced the candidates. The mailing was done by a bulk Mail company
and
> >> did not involve me. I got one returned letter, informed someone
responsible
> >> who had a right to see that address, and promptly forgot it.
> >>
> >> Thanks
> >>
> >> Bruce
> >>
> >> On Sun, Jul 12, 2020, 7:11 PM Kevin via AMSAT-BB <amsat-bb@?????.???>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Hello All,
> >>>
> >>> In a previous email to the BB I posted the link to the letter we all
> >>> received as members.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
https://www.amsat.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/20200710_AMSAT_Lead
ership_Explains_Legal_Expenses.pdf
> >>>
> >>> I was re-reading it and something caught my eye that I had missed
before.
> >>>
> >>> "AMSAT did not provide a copy of its membership mailing addresses to
> >>> Open Research Institute."
> >>>
> >>> Just how was our mailing list compromised? This seems like a serious
> >>> breech of security, was this a hack? was any other information lost?
> >>> was it ever found out how it happened? is our mailing list as they say
> >>> "out in the wind"?
> >>>
> >>> Michelle could you possibly check from the ORI side and backtrack how
> >>> ORI came into possession of the AMSAT mailing list, was it something
> >>> that was procured online?
> >>>
> >>> AMSAT needs to follow up on this privacy issue and report back what it
> >>> found and any steps that were taken to prevent this from happening in
> >>> the future.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I look forward to an answer
> >>>
> >>> 73 Kevin WA7FWF #19623
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
> >>> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
> >>> Opinions expressed
> >>> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
> >>> AMSAT-NA.
> >>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
> >>> program!
> >>> Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2020 22:30:29 -0700
> From: Bruce Perens <bruce@??????.???>
> To: Kevin <wa7fwf@?????.???>
> Cc: AMSAT BB <amsat-bb@?????.???>
> Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] AMSAT Member Mailing list
> Message-ID:
> <CAK2MWOsYiCqnWi8igTOnVC-vh_Xo=yFtZKYgwwgnzYF-6qNfPQ@????.?????.???>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> The candidate felt that since I wrote the letter, that the return address
> should be mine. I didn't ask for it, I especially did not ask for my home
> address, which is not in the call book, to be used. As it happens, I found
> out about one silent key member in the return mail, which I passed on and
> promptly forgot. I work for lawyers all day in my consulting business, and
> thus I read the rules, I understand the rules, I follow the rules. These
> are not, by the way, Robert's Rules of Order. These are things like what a
> director is responsible for, and how to run an election. It really bothers
> me that the incumbents didn't know those rules.
>
> Thanks
>
> Bruce
>
> On Sun, Jul 12, 2020, 10:11 PM Kevin <wa7fwf@?????.???> wrote:
>
> > Well Bruce,
> >
> > Something doesn't jive here, " I didn't do the mailing . I only wrote
> > the content " then it seems the candidate would have been the person that
> > was dealing with the bulk mailer and would have had their return address
> > listed and it would not have been your home address on it.
> >
> > Guess it's time to pick a different bulk mailer.
> >
> >
> > Kevin WA7FWF #19623
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 7/12/2020 9:48 PM, Bruce Perens wrote:
> >
> > Kevin,
> >
> > No, I never saw the mailing list . I didn't do the mailing . I only wrote
> > the content .
> >
> > So, why was I involved at all ?
> >
> > I won't say I'm the best tech evangelist you know, because that is for
> > other people to judge. However, if you count the Open Source movement in
> > software; the campaign for the elimination of the Morse code requirement
> > for Amateur Radio licenses, which among other things I got on the front
> > page of the New York Times, above the fold; My work to help elect a new
> > ARRL board to end the confidentiality versus transparency debacle; And my
> > global appearance for IBM's "Dear Tech", campaign, which got at least
50000
> > television and Internet airplays;
> >
> > If you count all those things, I am probably the person you want
> > introducing you as a candidate, and I might be a good person to tell you
> > how to run a campaign.
> >
> > As it happens I wrote my own campaign, which I was going to put out under
> > my own name, endorsing those candidates. And then the candidates chose to
> > use it as their main campaign statement. This was very flattering and
> > entirely their own choice.
> >
> > As an ARRL member, it was my right to participate in their election, and
> > it is my right to participate in AMSAT's.
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Bruce K6BP
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Jul 12, 2020, 9:29 PM Kevin <wa7fwf@?????.???> wrote:
> >
> >> Bruce,
> >> So hang on a moment, you're telling me that the candidates are allowed
> >> to use the mailing list for their campaign (fine), but rather than them
> >> doing it themselves they turned the task over to you? So you were in
> >> possession of the mailing list and then you turned it over to the bulk
> >> mailing center when you authored the mailer?
> >>
> >> Kevin WA7FWF #19623
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On 7/12/2020 9:08 PM, Bruce Perens wrote:
> >>
> >> The candidates are allowed the use of the mailing list for their
> >> campaign. If you read the bylaws, they make it very clear. One of the
> >> candidates did all of the handling of the mailing list.
> >>
> >> Incidentally, the board was not aware that they had to give the mailing
> >> list to the candidates. This was something the candidates had to tell
them,
> >> after I read the bylaws. Had the board run things the way they desired,
> >> only a board controlled 200 word statement would have reached you from
the
> >> candidates, except for the incumbents, who have had free use of AMSAT's
> >> official publications to carry their opinions.
> >>
> >> In a more perfect world, the board would have known their own bylaws, or
> >> at least the secretary who was running the election would have read them.
> >>
> >> But in a more perfect world, two people were trying to reform the
> >> organization with not face quite this uphill a battle.
> >>
> >> Thanks
> >>
> >> Bruce
> >>
> >> On Sun, Jul 12, 2020, 9:00 PM Kevin <wa7fwf@?????.???> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Well how did the bulk mailing company get the AMSAT member mailing list
> >>> if AMSAT did not provide it?
> >>>
> >>> Kevin
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On 7/12/2020 8:32 PM, Bruce Perens wrote:
> >>>
> >>> The mailing list was never compromised. But my HOME address, under "Open
> >>> Research Institute" was used as the return address. This was a mistake
and
> >>> I didn't ask for it. I was, however, the author of the mailer, in
which I
> >>> introduced the candidates. The mailing was done by a bulk Mail company
and
> >>> did not involve me. I got one returned letter, informed someone
responsible
> >>> who had a right to see that address, and promptly forgot it.
> >>>
> >>> Thanks
> >>>
> >>> Bruce
> >>>
> >>> On Sun, Jul 12, 2020, 7:11 PM Kevin via AMSAT-BB <amsat-bb@?????.???>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Hello All,
> >>>>
> >>>> In a previous email to the BB I posted the link to the letter we all
> >>>> received as members.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
https://www.amsat.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/20200710_AMSAT_Lead
ership_Explains_Legal_Expenses.pdf
> >>>>
> >>>> I was re-reading it and something caught my eye that I had missed
> >>>> before.
> >>>>
> >>>> "AMSAT did not provide a copy of its membership mailing addresses to
> >>>> Open Research Institute."
> >>>>
> >>>> Just how was our mailing list compromised? This seems like a
> >>>> serious
> >>>> breech of security, was this a hack? was any other information lost?
> >>>> was it ever found out how it happened? is our mailing list as they say
> >>>> "out in the wind"?
> >>>>
> >>>> Michelle could you possibly check from the ORI side and backtrack how
> >>>> ORI came into possession of the AMSAT mailing list, was it something
> >>>> that was procured online?
> >>>>
> >>>> AMSAT needs to follow up on this privacy issue and report back what it
> >>>> found and any steps that were taken to prevent this from happening in
> >>>> the future.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> I look forward to an answer
> >>>>
> >>>> 73 Kevin WA7FWF #19623
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
> >>>> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
> >>>> Opinions expressed
> >>>> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views
> >>>> of AMSAT-NA.
> >>>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
> >>>> program!
> >>>> Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Subject: Digest Footer
>
> _______________________________________________
> Sent via amsat-bb@?????.???.
> AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons
worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed
> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
AMSAT-NA.
> Not an AMSAT member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
> https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol 15, Issue 241
> *****************************************
------------------------------
Subject: Digest Footer
_______________________________________________
Sent via amsat-bb@?????.???.
AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide
without requiring membership. Opinions expressed
are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
AMSAT-NA.
Not an AMSAT member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
------------------------------
End of AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol 15, Issue 243
*****************************************
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