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CX2SA > SATDIG 13.07.20 20:41l 990 Lines 38105 Bytes #999 (0) @ WW
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Sent: 200713/1834Z @:CX2SA.SAL.URY.SOAM #:34888 [Salto] FBB7.00e $:AMSATBB15244
From: CX2SA@CX2SA.SAL.URY.SOAM
To : SATDIG@WW
Today's Topics:
1. The SATS (Gerald Witalec)
2. Re: Back after a 2 yr absence (Clint Bradford)
3. Re: Enough of this! (Kevin)
4. AMSAT-NA, another perspective (Russ Ramirez)
5. Re: AMSAT Member Mailing list (Jean Marc Momple)
6. Re: Members Please Read (Michelle Thompson)
7. Re: Non Profits and Boards (Michael Tondee)
8. Re: Gravitas (Bob Hammond)
9. Re: AMSAT Member Mailing list (David Swanson)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 15:00:10 +0000 (UTC)
From: Gerald Witalec <jplanner@?????????.???>
To: amsat-bb@?????.???
Subject: [amsat-bb] The SATS
Message-ID: <1565459593.833748.1594652410529@????.?????.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
With all this hate and discontent going on, I have eight individuals who are
interested inobtaining their Amateur Ham Radio License, but what they are
seeing the bickeringon this board, they are now all on hold. Their interest
was also in the satellites.
Jerry...W8RQM
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 08:02:02 -0700
From: Clint Bradford <clintbradford@???.???>
To: AMSAT BB <amsat-bb@?????.???>
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Back after a 2 yr absence
Message-ID: <959E3916-D923-4DFB-B5B9-5943CDDB82D3@???.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Me, too. Was just appointed as an AMSAT Ambassador.
Other than that, not much newsworthy lately from AMSAT-NA ?
(g)
Clint Bradford K6LCS
http://www.work-sat.com
> On Jul 13, 2020, at 5:55 AM, amsat-bb-request@?????.??? wrote:
>
> Back after a 2 yr absence ...
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 08:04:52 -0700
From: Kevin <wa7fwf@?????.???>
To: amsat-bb@?????.???
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Enough of this!
Message-ID: <1992f783-48e0-6d02-fbfb-0370310941b0@?????.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Sorry Folks,? but some of this has to be hashed out before the next
election and just burying it is not the way to go.
Might I suggest if it bothers you that badly to make use of the Amsat-BB
archives where you can filter? by thread to avoid? it, or create some
filter rules on your mail program and make us all disappear :)
73 Kevin wa7fwf #19623
On 7/13/2020 6:43 AM, Glenn Miller AA5PK via AMSAT-BB wrote:
> Couldn't agree more, Meeko.
>
> Glenn
> AA5PK
>
> -----Original Message----- From: Meeko Kittika via AMSAT-BB
> Sent: Monday, July 13, 2020 1:11 AM
> To: amsat-bb@?????.???
> Subject: [amsat-bb] Enough of this!
>
> I'm from Amsat-UK land and completely disgusted with this pantomime.
>
> I'm un-subscribing because I came here to discuss and learn about
> amateur satellites with like minded individuals.? I was wrong
> apparently. What I'm witnessing is a mess. Sort yourselves out! You do
> a disservice to the hobby.
>
> Meeko
> M0FVD
> _______________________________________________
> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
> Opinions expressed
> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views
> of AMSAT-NA.
> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
> program!
> Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
> _______________________________________________
> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
> Opinions expressed
> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views
> of AMSAT-NA.
> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
> program!
> Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 10:08:01 -0500
From: Russ Ramirez <russ.ramirez@?????.???>
To: amsat-bb@?????.???
Subject: [amsat-bb] AMSAT-NA, another perspective
Message-ID:
<CAJgz9AY+ee-htyrHzRhrGbkW+bNkwkxrAF+KFR5bOnrCKiWDzA@????.?????.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
I have been a member on/off since 2012. I have never been removed from this
AMSAT mailing list, but have not always been able to log into the AMSAT.org
web site. In spite of this, I have renewed my membership, typically at
Hamvention (until this year, but did so online), and made extra purchases
to support the work of AMSAT.
I definitely echo the message of Hans BX2ABT. Not everyone is bad, but
unfortunately too many are not good either.
When reading over each point of view of this ongoing dispute, it is not
very clear what started this dispute. In a statement in response to
allegations of financial mismanagement, Clayton wrote:
*AMSAT's corporate records give a full accounting of all expendituresand
are provided to its Directors upon request, in compliance with ourgoverning
documents and law of the District of Columbia (D.C.) Ouroffice remains
closed due to COVID-19, where those documents reside.Furthermore, AMSAT
complies with IRS rules for 501(c)(3) disclosure ofpublic financial
documents, such as the Form 990 available on theAMSAT website *
The above statement is either wholly true, or gray, because making a
statement like this which is completely false would be illegal.
Michelle, you have claimed that you (and Patrick) were denied access to
financial transaction records upon your written request. Can we simply
focus on *what* specifically started this whole thing?
Russ Ramirez
K0WFS
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 19:25:32 +0400
From: Jean Marc Momple <jean.marc.momple@?????.???>
To: Hans BX2ABT <hans.bx2abt@???.?????.???>
Cc: amsat-bb@?????.???
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] AMSAT Member Mailing list
Message-ID: <80BF9D85-D844-4ADD-B5CB-F16A8B3203A8@?????.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Hans,
I tend to agree with you as without some trust there is no possible
collaboration and team work, and also agree that only people working does
mistakes (we all do) and the ones doing nothing cannot surely do so.
I am a member of AMSAT-NA and also an Ambassador of AMSAT-NA. I really
regret this situation, In spite having my own personal opinion about the
parties in dispute and that I am sure that such war (most probably both
sides have good intentions) could have been easily been avoided with just
dialog and at least not been thrown on the BB which seems to have become a
battle field instead of an exchange forum, this is sad.
I will vote at next election and hope this situation will end soon, I just
hope that US will catch up in the Ham satellite field (was a leader for many
year and this is surely now over as you rightly pointed out). I therefore
applied for AMSAT-DL membership a few days ago and if all this continues I
will probably/regretfully not renew my AMSAT-NA subscription.
I therefore again appeal to the Board members to sit down around a table
(e.g. Zoom) and try to work together, more this BB does not need these
politics or electoral propaganda, so many mails to delete every day
(starting to be stressful) that if it continues I will surely unsubscribe.
I just hope my humble message will be heard.
73
Jean Marc (3B8DU)
> On Jul 13, 2020, at 4:02 PM, Hans BX2ABT via AMSAT-BB <amsat-bb@?????.???>
wrote:
>
> On 7/13/20 7:32 PM, David Swanson via AMSAT-BB wrote:
>> Spin Spin Spin.
>
> I think this is the biggest problem in the world right now.
>
> People simply don't want to believe each other any more, or even entertain
the thought that the "opponent" might be (partially) right or acting in good
faith. Mistakes cannot be forgiven, because they are always made with
malicious intent. And one's own actions are always right, because the other
party is always wrong.
>
> The trenches are dug, the weapons are loaded: let's go to war.
>
> In the meantime the Russians give us Sputnik RS-44 (almost MEO), the
Chinese shoot cool experiments into space (albeit with the quality of most
stuff made in China) and the Germans achieve the first geo-stationary
amateur payload. What does AMSAT-NA achieve? The world is already shaking
its head when the USA are mentioned because of how it handles COVID-19. Now
the amateur radio world laughs at how AMSAT-NA is handling itself. To quote
your great leader: "So sad!"
>
> 73 de Hans (BX2ABT)
>
>
> P.S. not an AMSAT-NA member, just here to share and learn about
satellites. Now ducking for incoming flak.
>
>
>
>
>> The simple truth here is Director Thompson took the AMSAT
>> member database, and handed it over to a 3rd party competing entity for the
>> purpose of solicitation. I know I did not give ORI my home address, yet ORI
>> sent me a letter. This was a violation of my privacy, and for AMSAT
>> members living in the EU, this was a violation of the law. Any attempt to
>> explain this away is just more lies and deceit from Director Thompson about
>> the shady practices they have engaged in over the past few years. As I keep
>> saying, this isn't a one time thing, this is a pattern of
>> reprehensible behavior that is unbecoming of an elected position and this
>> community. Director Thompson and Director Stoddard should resign.
>>
>> -Dave, KG5CCI
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 5:33 AM Michelle Thompson via AMSAT-BB <
>> amsat-bb@?????.???> wrote:
>>
>>> Yes, I can.
>>>
>>> That part of Clayton's letter is wrong and has been repeatedly clarified
>>> before. Including at the 2019 annual board meeting, where Tom Clark asked
>>> me about it, as part of the record.
>>>
>>> Clayton Coleman was secretary in 2019.
>>>
>>> He ran the election.
>>>
>>> He decided that candidate statements were limited in length to 350 words,
>>> would be subject to editorial control by AMSAT, and could not include
>>> links. These new rules were given to us right before the 4th of July
>>> holiday with a deadline of the 7th.
>>>
>>> This is different than any election before, where statements went directly
>>> to the printer from the candidate, were not limited in length, and no one
>>> from AMSAT leadership (who might be running for reelection themselves) had
>>> any control over the content of their challengers' statements.
>>>
>>> We got these rules right before ballots went out. We (four challengers)
>>> already had normal-sized statements on the web and they had been up six
>>> weeks at that point. Those were the ones we wanted to use, and link to.
>>>
>>> We knew that as candidates, we had the right to request the mailing list,
>>> and send our own statements, independent of the ballot.
>>>
>>> I requested the address list and got the DBASE4 export.
>>>
>>> Bruce Perens had already written a letter of support and distributed it
>>> widely on the web. It introduced us and included our four full bios and
>>> statements.
>>>
>>> I asked Bruce if we could use his letter in the mailing. He said yes.
Since
>>> he was President of Open Research Institute at the time, he wanted the
>>> return address to not be his private home address, but a business address.
>>> That was ORI's address. He was the author of the endorsement, so I used
his
>>> preferred return address.
>>>
>>> I converted the DBASE4 to a more useful format, fixed the 50 or so
>>> undeliverable addresses, and found an inexpensive printer. Then I sent the
>>> letter from Bruce to the printer, with the bios and statements.
>>>
>>> That turned out to be a good thing. Bios and statements were not included
>>> with the ballots mailed out, at all.
>>>
>>> If we had not sent the letter, then name recognition would be the primary
>>> factor. We were running against well-known people.
>>>
>>> We complained about this. It was unusual departure from the past and
seemed
>>> set up to let leadership benefit from being incumbents.
>>>
>>> The original proposal from Clayton was for an electronic only ballot.
>>> Patrick said that the bylaws were a bit clunky here and it did need to be
>>> mailed out on paper. Paper was required.
>>>
>>> This is a big reason why I made a motion at our one board meeting, in
>>> March, for a bylaws committee.
>>>
>>> This bylaw isn't hard to fix. There's lots of examples out there of
>>> organizations doing electronic voting with working published bylaws.
>>>
>>> Bruce made it very clear, when the incumbents stirred up the pot about the
>>> return address, that it was an endorsement from him, this was commonly
done
>>> in political campaigns, and it would be grossly improper for me to use
>>> AMSATs return address because that would make it look like Bruce was
>>> speaking for or was from AMSAT. That was not going to happen. *That* would
>>> be improper.
>>>
>>> No one candidate wanted their personal address used as a return address.
We
>>> were mailing this as a slate and splitting the cost. We didn't have time
or
>>> funds to make an organization or rent a box for one letter on short
notice.
>>> The printer required a real return address.
>>>
>>> No one had the address list except the candidates. Namely me because I
>>> contracted the printer and handled the DBASE4 address conversion. That
is a
>>> neat story in and of itself,, for another time.
>>>
>>> Bruce only sent the text to me and chipped in some money for postage.
>>>
>>> The printing was automated in Van Nuys, CA.
>>>
>>> All of this is known to Clayton Coleman and his friends on the board that
>>> signed the statement from this week. It has been explained by Bruce
>>> publicly, and by me several times on social media. Tom Clark brought it up
>>> at the 2019 annual board meeting because of the return address
>>> pot-stirring. I explained it there too. Like I said, it's on the record.
>>>
>>> I think insinuating the addresses were mishandled is a deliberate twisting
>>> of honest efforts to scramble to get uncensored candidate statements out
to
>>> voters on short notice. We just didn't have a lot of time, and Bruce was
>>> very generous in writing a cover letter.
>>>
>>> Again, candidates are allowed the use of the mailing lists for election
>>> purposes.
>>>
>>> So, no, there was no breach. Clayton knows all this.
>>>
>>> Saying it the way he did is a cheap shot at me, Patrick, Bruce Perens, and
>>> ORI.
>>>
>>> -Michelle W5NYV
>>>
>>> On Sun, Jul 12, 2020, 19:11 Kevin via AMSAT-BB <amsat-bb@?????.???> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hello All,
>>>>
>>>> In a previous email to the BB I posted the link to the letter we all
>>>> received as members.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
https://www.amsat.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/20200710_AMSAT_Lead
ership_Explains_Legal_Expenses.pdf
>>>> I was re-reading it and something caught my eye that I had missed before.
>>>>
>>>> "AMSAT did not provide a copy of its membership mailing addresses to
>>>> Open Research Institute."
>>>>
>>>> Just how was our mailing list compromised? This seems like a serious
>>>> breech of security, was this a hack? was any other information lost?
>>>> was it ever found out how it happened? is our mailing list as they say
>>>> "out in the wind"?
>>>>
>>>> Michelle could you possibly check from the ORI side and backtrack how
>>>> ORI came into possession of the AMSAT mailing list, was it something
>>>> that was procured online?
>>>>
>>>> AMSAT needs to follow up on this privacy issue and report back what it
>>>> found and any steps that were taken to prevent this from happening in
>>>> the future.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I look forward to an answer
>>>>
>>>> 73 Kevin WA7FWF #19623
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
>>>> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
>>> Opinions
>>>> expressed
>>>> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
>>>> AMSAT-NA.
>>>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
>>> program!
>>>> Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
>>> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions
>>> expressed
>>> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
>>> AMSAT-NA.
>>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
>>> Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
>> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
Opinions expressed
>> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
AMSAT-NA.
>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
>> Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions
expressed
> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
AMSAT-NA.
> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
> Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 08:26:43 -0700
From: Michelle Thompson <mountain.michelle@?????.???>
To: Joseph Armbruster <josepharmbruster@?????.???>
Cc: Amsat BB <amsat-bb@?????.???>, Brad Smith <corlissbs@???.???>
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Members Please Read
Message-ID:
<CACvjz2W+-Vt1-7GjuASh=1gM5e0+1hPOEzKfGw6gLHjjxy2kbA@????.?????.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
ORI is an AMSAT Member Society. Posting here is appropriate.
All work done is provided free of charge and directly benefits AMSAT.
ORI doesn't sell memberships. It's a research institute. There's no
competition for members because the only members are the board.
This is not uncommon in R&D.
Other AMSAT board members and officers work in the satellite industry, work
for NASA or a contractor, work for universities with satellite programs,
are on space advisory boards, or are presidents or directors of independent
amateur satellite organizations.
Like ARISS USA.
And Project Oscar.
If everyone that was active enough in amateur satellite to wear multiple
hats stepped down, we'd have a very very small leadership team in AMSAT.
Being disgusted by good news and activity seems weird to me. Calling honest
good news that was joyfully shared "garbage" is disappointing to read.
I apologize in advance because there will be more of it in the future.
-Michelle W5NYV
On Sun, Jul 12, 2020, 14:22 Joseph Armbruster via AMSAT-BB <
amsat-bb@?????.???> wrote:
> Brad,
>
> What transparency and progress has been brought to the organization
> from the members that you speak of? Specifically? It appears that
> since they were voted in, everyone in the organization is now walking
> on egg-shells. The BB is now plastered with emails asking which words
> mean what feelings, name calling and chasing after the organization
> using whatever legal means the wizards-of-smart can conjure up all in
> the name of almighty, all-righeous, '''transparency'''. It all seems
> rather insincere and unproductive to me. People like this should do
> the organization a favor, and leave, run their own competing
> organization and take whatever people and dollars happen to follow
> them.
>
> I would honestly like to return to the ARISSat-1 days, where it was
> just full-speed-ahead engineering and not all this talk all about
> 'saving AMSAT' and ORI garbage. All this ORI promotion on the BB, is
> absolute garbage. No rational AMSAT member should be OK with that,
> especially from an AMSAT BOD member. ORI is a separate, competing
> organization and their bylaws are..... telling. If AMSATs bylaws were
> ever amended to be anything like those, you can kiss your membership
> goodbye, ref: https://openresearch.institute/organization-documents.
> Their bylaws literally say "Membership shall consist of the Board of
> Directors.". Quite an Open organization, indeed!
>
> But I digress... The more of these kinds of people you vote in, the
> more the organization is going to be hurt, guaranteed. Because not
> only is nothing going to get done, obviously some people don't want to
> work with them for whatever-reasons and THAT actually is important.
> And, the reasons are important too. Have you wondered why...? I do!
> As a small business owner, when I hear such-and-such doesn't want to
> work with so-and-so, I immediately want to ask "What happened"? From
> what the email traffic looks like, it seems like you may have to worry
> about legal action for everything you say or do around them or, maybe
> there was some pre-election history that most of the people that voted
> for them, didn't know about. I have no clue, but this all does make
> me wonder.
>
> Either way, it seems like the state of things right now is Much Worst
> than it was prior-to the last election, so... Not sure why anyone
> would want more of this. For me, the socio-political environment is
> just as important as the engi-nerding portion.. At the very least,
> BOD members need to be promoting the organization they are on the
> board of and noone should have to worry about legal retaliation over
> every little thing.
>
> Joseph Armbruster
> KJ4JIO
>
> On Sun, Jul 12, 2020 at 3:58 PM Brad Smith via AMSAT-BB
> <amsat-bb@?????.???> wrote:
> >
> > If you care about the AMSAT organization continuing to help hams in
> space communications, please read and reread Patrick's and Michelle's
> explanations. They layout exactly what happened. Now we learn that the
> expenditure is over 16k. That is 363 memberships, if this retired
> engineer's math is correct. This is money wasted to beat down two members
> who want transparency and progress. This was not right. Our money was
> wasted! I am anxious for the election.
> >
> > Again, I ask that members do not resign over this. That helps nobody and
> hurts out hobby, which has already taken a huge hit. Solve this with your
> voting privilege.
> >
> > 73 Brad KC9UQR
> > _______________________________________________
> > Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
> > to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
> Opinions expressed
> > are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
> AMSAT-NA.
> > Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
> program!
> > Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
> _______________________________________________
> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions
> expressed
> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
> AMSAT-NA.
> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
> Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 11:30:27 -0400
From: Michael Tondee <mat_62@???????.???>
To: amsat-bb@?????.???
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Non Profits and Boards
Message-ID: <fffe4afb-ddc2-e1b6-df98-7e9ff691caaa@???????.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
I have no idea what this below is supposed to insinuate if anything but
to set the record straight, I am responsible for two recent post both of
which I stand by. The "cookie jar" reference and the opinion that AMSAT
has been stagnant and absent of any real innovation for years. The
"stagnant" post never went through for whatever reason so I ended up
forwarding it again. Yes, that's full my name and call, been at the same
QTH for 27 years and my opinions are my own. The call was originally my
late father's.
?Even though? I'm not a member any more, I keep up with this list
because I keep hoping this organization will do something to show me it
deserves my support. Needless to say this latest fiasco doesn't do that.
>From the outside looking in AMSAT is broken and it was broken long
before this scandal. Now I'm repeating myself, for what good it does.
Y'all really should clean house in your next election. Misappropriation
of funds in a non profit is no laughing matter. I will gladly join again
if I see that happen and I begin to see this organization moving forward
again.
73,
Michael W4HIJ
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2020 20:33:28 -0700
> From: W3AB/GEO <w3ab@?????.???>
> To: Dwayne Sinclair <nna6us@?????.???>
> Cc: amsat-bb@?????.???
> Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Non Profits and Boards
> Message-ID: <cdead1a6-a683-4af9-a92c-8d3083e8d5f4@?????.???>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> Now it gets even better.
>
> Who is NA6US? Dwayne Sinclair? Didn't come up on qrz.com.
>
> Why was this posted under
>
> MICHAEL A TONDEE, W4HIJ's name?
>
>
> ?___
> Sent from my two way wrist watch
> 73 de W3AB/GEO?
>
>
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 08:45:22 -0700
From: Bob Hammond <propgrinder@?????.???>
To: amsat-bb@?????.???
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Gravitas
Message-ID:
<CAKoB7Oo5Zz40o4ib1Mut1uwz9aQBvKrXCFPDZj0F8rAp8eM_Wg@????.?????.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Clarification: I CHANGED my membership from Regular to Life.
Bob W7OTJ
On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 7:49 AM Bob Hammond <propgrinder@?????.???> wrote:
> I agree. I just rejoined AMSAT as a Life Member.
>
> Bob W7OTJ
> Member # 33378
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 7:29 AM Jeff Davis via AMSAT-BB <
> amsat-bb@?????.???> wrote:
>
>> Respect and trust are things not easily earned from people we almost
>> never see. It?s not difficult for me to respect and trust my wife having
>> lived with her for 42 years. Politicians and BoD members aren?t like that.
>> We often barely know them so any decision about who to vote for or who to
>> trust when conflicts arise is generally something of a gamble.
>>
>> But in this case the "explanation letter" issued by AMSAT was signed by
>> some people I've trusted for years, especially Dr. Tom Clark and Keith
>> Baker whose signatures lend considerable gravitas to the response.
>>
>> That said, I?m satisfied with the response and have made up my mind about
>> the choices in the coming election I intend to make. I hope you all have
>> too. And for those non-members who have kicked up considerable chaff here
>> on the -BB, I invite you to turn your angst, whatever it might be, into
>> action by joining AMSAT and have a vote in the matter. Otherwise, you?re
>> just ranting with into the wind for no reason other than to hear your own
>> voice?
>>
>> https://www.amsat.org/join-amsat/ <https://www.amsat.org/join-amsat/>
>>
>>
>> Jeff, KE9V
>> AMSAT 28350
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
>> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
>> Opinions expressed
>> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
>> AMSAT-NA.
>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
>> Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>>
>
------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 10:53:44 -0500
From: David Swanson <dave@?????????????.???>
To: AMSAT BB <amsat-bb@?????.???>
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] AMSAT Member Mailing list
Message-ID:
<CANq+eyXFLpC9t8jMG-8+x6TxQSTYFeKQ0s=_8j-g=LV98P4+Lg@????.?????.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
It's always fun to remind folks tripping over their own feat lying that the
internet is forever. From a Bruce Perens Tweet on July 13, 2020:
"Please see my letter on the web, or the paper copy I've mailed to everyone
one of you".
Of course the original tweet was deleted, but the wayback machine never
forgets. Don't Believe me? http://druidnetworks.com/2020-07-13.png
If you still think the membership list wasn't compromised, I just heard
Director Thompson will be auctioning off their ocean front property in
Arizona to all the members this year to raise funds for their microwave,
digital only, strictly open source crowd funded, vegan, social justice
aware cubesat launch to Proxima Centauri. Of course this launch will only
come after 10 years of ground station development, but fueled with enough
hopes, dreams and promises it will become a reality!
For the rest of us who actually want to keep amateur radio in (real) space
and are disgusted at the violations of privacy that occured by 3rd parties
working to get Director Thompson and Director Stoddard elected, well, you
should know what to do.
-Dave, KG5CCI
On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 9:24 AM Michelle Thompson <
mountain.michelle@?????.???> wrote:
> No database went anywhere except to candidates. This is allowed in the
> bylaws.
>
> Then, an automated bulk mail printing server was used. I recommended the
> company to Brennan Price for this year's mailing. Good service,
> inexpensive.
>
> Return addresses don't magically transfer information.
>
> -Michelle W5NYV
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 13, 2020, 04:32 David Swanson <dave@?????????????.???> wrote:
>
>> Spin Spin Spin. The simple truth here is Director Thompson took the AMSAT
>> member database, and handed it over to a 3rd party competing entity for the
>> purpose of solicitation. I know I did not give ORI my home address, yet ORI
>> sent me a letter. This was a violation of my privacy, and for AMSAT
>> members living in the EU, this was a violation of the law. Any attempt to
>> explain this away is just more lies and deceit from Director Thompson about
>> the shady practices they have engaged in over the past few years. As I keep
>> saying, this isn't a one time thing, this is a pattern of
>> reprehensible behavior that is unbecoming of an elected position and this
>> community. Director Thompson and Director Stoddard should resign.
>>
>> -Dave, KG5CCI
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 5:33 AM Michelle Thompson via AMSAT-BB <
>> amsat-bb@?????.???> wrote:
>>
>>> Yes, I can.
>>>
>>> That part of Clayton's letter is wrong and has been repeatedly clarified
>>> before. Including at the 2019 annual board meeting, where Tom Clark asked
>>> me about it, as part of the record.
>>>
>>> Clayton Coleman was secretary in 2019.
>>>
>>> He ran the election.
>>>
>>> He decided that candidate statements were limited in length to 350 words,
>>> would be subject to editorial control by AMSAT, and could not include
>>> links. These new rules were given to us right before the 4th of July
>>> holiday with a deadline of the 7th.
>>>
>>> This is different than any election before, where statements went
>>> directly
>>> to the printer from the candidate, were not limited in length, and no one
>>> from AMSAT leadership (who might be running for reelection themselves)
>>> had
>>> any control over the content of their challengers' statements.
>>>
>>> We got these rules right before ballots went out. We (four challengers)
>>> already had normal-sized statements on the web and they had been up six
>>> weeks at that point. Those were the ones we wanted to use, and link to.
>>>
>>> We knew that as candidates, we had the right to request the mailing list,
>>> and send our own statements, independent of the ballot.
>>>
>>> I requested the address list and got the DBASE4 export.
>>>
>>> Bruce Perens had already written a letter of support and distributed it
>>> widely on the web. It introduced us and included our four full bios and
>>> statements.
>>>
>>> I asked Bruce if we could use his letter in the mailing. He said yes.
>>> Since
>>> he was President of Open Research Institute at the time, he wanted the
>>> return address to not be his private home address, but a business
>>> address.
>>> That was ORI's address. He was the author of the endorsement, so I used
>>> his
>>> preferred return address.
>>>
>>> I converted the DBASE4 to a more useful format, fixed the 50 or so
>>> undeliverable addresses, and found an inexpensive printer. Then I sent
>>> the
>>> letter from Bruce to the printer, with the bios and statements.
>>>
>>> That turned out to be a good thing. Bios and statements were not included
>>> with the ballots mailed out, at all.
>>>
>>> If we had not sent the letter, then name recognition would be the primary
>>> factor. We were running against well-known people.
>>>
>>> We complained about this. It was unusual departure from the past and
>>> seemed
>>> set up to let leadership benefit from being incumbents.
>>>
>>> The original proposal from Clayton was for an electronic only ballot.
>>> Patrick said that the bylaws were a bit clunky here and it did need to be
>>> mailed out on paper. Paper was required.
>>>
>>> This is a big reason why I made a motion at our one board meeting, in
>>> March, for a bylaws committee.
>>>
>>> This bylaw isn't hard to fix. There's lots of examples out there of
>>> organizations doing electronic voting with working published bylaws.
>>>
>>> Bruce made it very clear, when the incumbents stirred up the pot about
>>> the
>>> return address, that it was an endorsement from him, this was commonly
>>> done
>>> in political campaigns, and it would be grossly improper for me to use
>>> AMSATs return address because that would make it look like Bruce was
>>> speaking for or was from AMSAT. That was not going to happen. *That*
>>> would
>>> be improper.
>>>
>>> No one candidate wanted their personal address used as a return address.
>>> We
>>> were mailing this as a slate and splitting the cost. We didn't have time
>>> or
>>> funds to make an organization or rent a box for one letter on short
>>> notice.
>>> The printer required a real return address.
>>>
>>> No one had the address list except the candidates. Namely me because I
>>> contracted the printer and handled the DBASE4 address conversion. That
>>> is a
>>> neat story in and of itself,, for another time.
>>>
>>> Bruce only sent the text to me and chipped in some money for postage.
>>>
>>> The printing was automated in Van Nuys, CA.
>>>
>>> All of this is known to Clayton Coleman and his friends on the board that
>>> signed the statement from this week. It has been explained by Bruce
>>> publicly, and by me several times on social media. Tom Clark brought it
>>> up
>>> at the 2019 annual board meeting because of the return address
>>> pot-stirring. I explained it there too. Like I said, it's on the record.
>>>
>>> I think insinuating the addresses were mishandled is a deliberate
>>> twisting
>>> of honest efforts to scramble to get uncensored candidate statements out
>>> to
>>> voters on short notice. We just didn't have a lot of time, and Bruce was
>>> very generous in writing a cover letter.
>>>
>>> Again, candidates are allowed the use of the mailing lists for election
>>> purposes.
>>>
>>> So, no, there was no breach. Clayton knows all this.
>>>
>>> Saying it the way he did is a cheap shot at me, Patrick, Bruce Perens,
>>> and
>>> ORI.
>>>
>>> -Michelle W5NYV
>>>
>>> On Sun, Jul 12, 2020, 19:11 Kevin via AMSAT-BB <amsat-bb@?????.???>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> > Hello All,
>>> >
>>> > In a previous email to the BB I posted the link to the letter we all
>>> > received as members.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>>
https://www.amsat.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/20200710_AMSAT_Lead
ership_Explains_Legal_Expenses.pdf
>>> >
>>> > I was re-reading it and something caught my eye that I had missed
>>> before.
>>> >
>>> > "AMSAT did not provide a copy of its membership mailing addresses to
>>> > Open Research Institute."
>>> >
>>> > Just how was our mailing list compromised? This seems like a
>>> serious
>>> > breech of security, was this a hack? was any other information lost?
>>> > was it ever found out how it happened? is our mailing list as they say
>>> > "out in the wind"?
>>> >
>>> > Michelle could you possibly check from the ORI side and backtrack how
>>> > ORI came into possession of the AMSAT mailing list, was it something
>>> > that was procured online?
>>> >
>>> > AMSAT needs to follow up on this privacy issue and report back what it
>>> > found and any steps that were taken to prevent this from happening in
>>> > the future.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > I look forward to an answer
>>> >
>>> > 73 Kevin WA7FWF #19623
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
>>> > to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
>>> Opinions
>>> > expressed
>>> > are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views
>>> of
>>> > AMSAT-NA.
>>> > Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
>>> program!
>>> > Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>>> >
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
>>> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
>>> Opinions expressed
>>> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
>>> AMSAT-NA.
>>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
>>> program!
>>> Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>>>
>>
------------------------------
Subject: Digest Footer
_______________________________________________
Sent via amsat-bb@?????.???.
AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide
without requiring membership. Opinions expressed
are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
AMSAT-NA.
Not an AMSAT member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
------------------------------
End of AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol 15, Issue 244
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