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CX2SA > SATDIG 13.07.20 22:46l 771 Lines 30924 Bytes #999 (0) @ WW
BID : AMSATBB15245
Read: GUEST
Subj: AMSAT-BB-digest V15 245
Path: IW8PGT<IZ3LSV<DB0ERF<DB0RES<ON0AR<OZ5BBS<CX2SA
Sent: 200713/2041Z @:CX2SA.SAL.URY.SOAM #:34890 [Salto] FBB7.00e $:AMSATBB15245
From: CX2SA@CX2SA.SAL.URY.SOAM
To : SATDIG@WW
Today's Topics:
1. Re: AMSAT Member Mailing list (Steve Kristoff)
2. Re: Members Please Read (73 Bob W7LRD)
3. Brief summary of the "unauthorized expenses" claim (Rich Gopstein)
4. Re: The SATS (Jean Marc Momple)
5. Re: AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol 15, Issue 243 (Michael Tondee)
6. Re: AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol 15, Issue 242 (Daniel Schultz)
7. Re: Gravitas (Robert Ehresman)
8. when is the election being discussed? (Daniel Velez)
9. Re: AMSAT-NA, another perspective (Michelle Thompson)
10. children (73 Bob W7LRD)
11. Re: AMSAT-NA, another perspective (John Brier)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 12:21:57 -0400
From: "Steve Kristoff" <skristof@???????.???>
To: amsat-bb@?????.???
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] AMSAT Member Mailing list
Message-ID: <4c89ff8a749b097c9a39b2d48aa79ed5@???????.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
I worked a satellite just this morning. They are still up there. Just have
to step away from the computer and turn on the radio.
Steve Ai9IN
?
----- Original Message -----
From: Brian Karcher via AMSAT-BB (amsat-bb@?????.????
Date: 07/13/20 12:10
To: amsat-bb@?????.???? amsat-bb-request@?????.???
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] AMSAT Member Mailing list
I thought being a member of AMSAT was about keeping amateur radio in space,
learning about satellites and for some of us working amateur radio
satellites in space. ?Since the last election AMSAT seems to be about
nothing but politics and misinformation. ?In my opinion AMSAT was a lot more
fun to be apart of before the last election. ?All the politics and
misinformation drives people away from AMSAT and is not good for the
organization. ?I have been told in the past by one of the new board members
that all of this is necessary for change to happen. ?I don't see that AMSAT
has to go through some fundamental change or movement. ?I am tired of the
new AMSAT since the last election. ?I am seriously considering not renewing
my membership and I know plenty of other that are considering the same.
?When will all of this end so we can start enjoying AMSAT again and working
satellites? ?
Brian D. Karcher
KG5GJT
? ? ? ?
>
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 09:31:26 -0700 (PDT)
From: 73 Bob W7LRD <w7lrd@???????.???>
To: Greg <almetco@???????.???>, Greg via AMSAT-BB <amsat-bb@?????.???>
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Members Please Read
Message-ID: <1237381593.52917.1594657886386@???????.???????.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
When my children were very young they would very occasionally get into
fights and conflicts. I would put them both into a small room in the house
and tell them, "you're coming out until you can get along.
73 Bob W7LRD
> On 07/13/2020 7:49 AM Greg via AMSAT-BB <amsat-bb@?????.???> wrote:
>
>
> Again, after being absent for a few years than rejoining AMSAT last month,
this is disheartening.
>
> BUT, what is really disheartening is that the directors say they are here
for the members. Well, if that is the case and you give a crap about the
members then give us the BB back and quit monopolizing it with your remarks
against the others.
>
> Put you big people pants on and deal with it via telephone, teleconference
etc the way many of us in the C suite had to do in the ?real world." Then
make it a campaign item WHEN elections roll around.
>
> The ironic part is if you ignore my request and other members request
asking for this to end on the board, then you really don't care about the
members and showed your true colors.
>
> Greg
> N3MVF
>
>
>
>
> On Jul 13, 2020, at 12:40 AM, Kenneth P Alexander via AMSAT-BB
<amsat-bb@?????.???> wrote:
>
> Sure Chad,
>
> I'll consider supporting Amsat again as soon as this mess is cleaned up and
> everyone is satisfied with the outcome, whichever way it goes.
>
> Ken, VE3HLS
> So Phisai, Thailand
> Blog: bueng-ken.com
>
> On Mon, Jul 13, 2020, 08:58 Chad KG0MW via AMSAT-BB <amsat-bb@?????.???>
> wrote:
>
> > Joseph you are right. As much as the BoD needs to promote AMSAT, we as
> > members need to stand up promote AMSAT and show our support. The more
> > support we show, hopefully the sooner we can get back to actual
> > constructive conversation.
> >
> > Chad
> >
> >
> > ?On 7/12/20, 4:22 PM, "AMSAT-BB on behalf of Joseph Armbruster via
> > AMSAT-BB" <amsat-bb-bounces@?????.??? on behalf of amsat-bb@?????.???>
> > wrote:
> >
> > Brad,
> >
> > What transparency and progress has been brought to the organization
> > from the members that you speak of? Specifically? It appears that
> > since they were voted in, everyone in the organization is now walking
> > on egg-shells. The BB is now plastered with emails asking which words
> > mean what feelings, name calling and chasing after the organization
> > using whatever legal means the wizards-of-smart can conjure up all in
> > the name of almighty, all-righeous, '''transparency'''. It all seems
> > rather insincere and unproductive to me. People like this should do
> > the organization a favor, and leave, run their own competing
> > organization and take whatever people and dollars happen to follow
> > them.
> >
> > I would honestly like to return to the ARISSat-1 days, where it was
> > just full-speed-ahead engineering and not all this talk all about
> > 'saving AMSAT' and ORI garbage. All this ORI promotion on the BB, is
> > absolute garbage. No rational AMSAT member should be OK with that,
> > especially from an AMSAT BOD member. ORI is a separate, competing
> > organization and their bylaws are..... telling. If AMSATs bylaws were
> > ever amended to be anything like those, you can kiss your membership
> > goodbye, ref: https://openresearch.institute/organization-documents.
> > Their bylaws literally say "Membership shall consist of the Board of
> > Directors.". Quite an Open organization, indeed!
> >
> > But I digress... The more of these kinds of people you vote in, the
> > more the organization is going to be hurt, guaranteed. Because not
> > only is nothing going to get done, obviously some people don't want to
> > work with them for whatever-reasons and THAT actually is important.
> > And, the reasons are important too. Have you wondered why...? I do!
> > As a small business owner, when I hear such-and-such doesn't want to
> > work with so-and-so, I immediately want to ask "What happened"? From
> > what the email traffic looks like, it seems like you may have to worry
> > about legal action for everything you say or do around them or, maybe
> > there was some pre-election history that most of the people that voted
> > for them, didn't know about. I have no clue, but this all does make
> > me wonder.
> >
> > Either way, it seems like the state of things right now is Much Worst
> > than it was prior-to the last election, so... Not sure why anyone
> > would want more of this. For me, the socio-political environment is
> > just as important as the engi-nerding portion.. At the very least,
> > BOD members need to be promoting the organization they are on the
> > board of and noone should have to worry about legal retaliation over
> > every little thing.
> >
> > Joseph Armbruster
> > KJ4JIO
> >
> > On Sun, Jul 12, 2020 at 3:58 PM Brad Smith via AMSAT-BB
> > <amsat-bb@?????.???> wrote:
> >>
> >> If you care about the AMSAT organization continuing to help hams in
> > space communications, please read and reread Patrick's and Michelle's
> > explanations. They layout exactly what happened. Now we learn that the
> > expenditure is over 16k. That is 363 memberships, if this retired
> > engineer's math is correct. This is money wasted to beat down two members
> > who want transparency and progress. This was not right. Our money was
> > wasted! I am anxious for the election.
> >>
> >> Again, I ask that members do not resign over this. That helps nobody
> > and hurts out hobby, which has already taken a huge hit. Solve this with
> > your voting privilege.
> >>
> >> 73 Brad KC9UQR
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum
> > available
> >> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
> > Opinions expressed
> >> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official
> > views of AMSAT-NA.
> >> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
> > program!
> >> Subscription settings:
> > https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
> > _______________________________________________
> > Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
> > to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
> > Opinions expressed
> > are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views
> > of AMSAT-NA.
> > Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
> > program!
> > Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
> > _______________________________________________
> > Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
> > to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions
> > expressed
> > are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
> > AMSAT-NA.
> > Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
> > Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions
expressed
> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
AMSAT-NA.
> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
> Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>
> _______________________________________________
> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions
expressed
> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
AMSAT-NA.
> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
> Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 12:36:49 -0400
From: Rich Gopstein <rich@????????????.???>
To: Amsat - BBs <AMSAT-BB@?????.???>
Subject: [amsat-bb] Brief summary of the "unauthorized expenses" claim
Message-ID:
<CANsNeaoAOL8BRBS8efmhNVC8-vQ3cWb3+uF2X1pkpe05=t2jFA@????.?????.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
First: I'm not a lawyer. These are my observations only.
This is what I learned over the past few days while researching the claim
that the AMSAT money spent on legal services related to the new directors
was "unauthorized".
- I read the AMSAT bylaws. They are very readable, BTW - and not long.
- The bylaws say that expenses can be authorized either by the board
itself or by the officers of AMSAT if the board delegates that authority.
- If an expense went to the board for approval, it would show up in the
minutes of that board meeting.
- If an expense were authorized by an officer, then it wouldn't show up
in the minutes of a board meeting.
- The claim that the expenses were unauthorized was based on the
observation that there was no record in the board meeting minutes of the
authorization. However, as mentioned above, not everything has to go to
the board for approval. And that decision is up to the board itself.
- In this case, the members of the AMSAT board at the time said that the
expenses were authorized.
- Since the board has the authority to authorize expenditures (directly
or indirectly) and they say the expenses were authorized, that indicates to
me that the expenses were authorized.
Note: Michelle and Patrick were not members of the board when this
happened. They were analyzing this after the fact.
Rich
KD2CQ
AMSAT Life Member
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 21:07:42 +0400
From: Jean Marc Momple <jean.marc.momple@?????.???>
To: Gerald Witalec <jplanner@?????????.???>
Cc: amsat-bb@?????.???
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] The SATS
Message-ID: <3F4A6902-0317-4673-8645-9B91AF86E4EF@?????.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Jerry,
I have been promoting Ham satellites for many years and particularly to the
younger generation for a real blood renewal (I am 60) with some success so
far.
Just please tell them that AMSAT-NA management issues is not a major one as
Hams organizations worldwide will eventually take over if AMSAT-NA not able
to cope. Ham radio is a worldwide fraternity and it will survive in any case
particularly in satellites as there are many initiatives from other
countries underway, the best example is QO-100.
Keep it up my friend.
73
Jean Marc (3B8DU)
> On Jul 13, 2020, at 7:00 PM, Gerald Witalec via AMSAT-BB
<amsat-bb@?????.???> wrote:
>
> With all this hate and discontent going on, I have eight individuals who
are interested inobtaining their Amateur Ham Radio License, but what they
are seeing the bickeringon this board, they are now all on hold. Their
interest was also in the satellites.
>
> Jerry...W8RQM
> _______________________________________________
> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions
expressed
> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
AMSAT-NA.
> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
> Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 13:08:22 -0400
From: Michael Tondee <mat_62@???????.???>
To: amsat-bb@?????.???
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol 15, Issue 243
Message-ID: <4177634d-7069-b710-efd4-e8c32acf7103@???????.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Non member here. I am voting. It's called voting with my wallet and
withholding financial support until? AMSAT does something worth
supporting. A good start would be the members cleaning house this
election! Probably won't happen and sadly the good ole boy network will
remain. As I've already stated, it's not just this scandal either, it's
the direction AMSAT has taken since the demise of Eagle and the
inability of the entire international community to find a ride for P3-E.
Many are frustrated.? I think if the AMSAT board and membership would
open their eyes, they'd be amazed to find how many other hams are out
here who feel the same way and are doing exactly the same as I am too.
Done with this now, pointless to comment any further.
73, Michael, W4HIJ
>
>
> Respect and trust are things not easily earned from people we almost never
see. It?s not difficult for me to respect and trust my wife having lived
with her for 42 years. Politicians and BoD members aren?t like that. We
often barely know them so any decision about who to vote for or who to trust
when conflicts arise is generally something of a gamble.
>
> But in this case the "explanation letter" issued by AMSAT was signed by
some people I've trusted for years, especially Dr. Tom Clark and Keith Baker
whose signatures lend considerable gravitas to the response.
>
> That said, I?m satisfied with the response and have made up my mind about
the choices in the coming election I intend to make. I hope you all have
too. And for those non-members who have kicked up considerable chaff here on
the -BB, I invite you to turn your angst, whatever it might be, into action
by joining AMSAT and have a vote in the matter. Otherwise, you?re just
ranting with into the wind for no reason other than to hear your own voice?
>
> https://www.amsat.org/join-amsat/ <https://www.amsat.org/join-amsat/>
>
>
> Jeff, KE9V
> AMSAT 28350
>
>
>
>
>
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 11:07:37 -0400
From: "Daniel Schultz" <n8fgv@???.???>
To: <amsat-bb@?????.???>
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol 15, Issue 242
Message-ID: <146ygmPgl1984Set.1594652857@?????.???.???.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Dear Gailen,
In filing your two line gripe about the "structural squabbling" displacing the
normal discussion of the "birds" on amsat-bb, you forwarded all 913 lines of
the entire AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol 15, Issue 242, back to the group. If you are
going to complain about the signal to noise ratio, at least take the time to
edit your reply before hitting send. If you can't do that from your iPhone,
then wait until you get home and send your reply from a real computer.
No we are not going to create yet another mailing list. If you don't like it
then hit Delete and go on to the next message about the "birds".
Dan Schultz N8FGV
------ Original Message ------
>Received: Sun, 12 Jul 2020 15:50:47 -0500
>From: Gailen Marshall <gdm2md@?????.???>
>To: amsat-bb@?????.???
>Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol 15, Issue 233
>Message-ID: <92CBBC69-47D9-46E3-A39C-4B8DBD8482F5@?????.???>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
>Yes! Can we stick to the birds and let those interested in structural
squabbling
>have their own venue? Gailen N5GDM
>
>Sent from my iPhone
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 10:17:15 -0500
From: Robert Ehresman <robert.ehresman@?????.???>
To: ke9v@???.???
Cc: amsat-bb@?????.???
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Gravitas
Message-ID:
<CAHxrdOTuVzMxEGpCNHE5Y37RzMxs9hDOhfGJnARUDC=61m8OhA@????.?????.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
I'd like to point out that the "Join AMSAT" page is currently giving out
Error 404.
PAGE NOT FOUND (ERROR 404)
Sorry, but the page you are trying to access either does not exist or is
not available.
Home <https://launch.amsat.org/> Back Sitemap
<https://launch.amsat.org/Sitemap>
>I invite you to turn your angst, whatever it >might be, into action by
joining AMSAT >and have a vote in the matter. Otherwise, >you?re just
ranting with into the wind for >no reason other than to hear your own
>voice?
>https://www.amsat.org/join-amsat/
><https://www.amsat.org/join-amsat/>
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 13:10:30 -0400
From: Daniel Velez <djvnet@?????.???>
To: amsat-bb@?????.???
Subject: [amsat-bb] when is the election being discussed?
Message-ID:
<CAOBpJZoH99bCJ7WSXvRHNafO4Nzy6aYhAJAjfun5MJaoqR-beA@????.?????.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
I joined in June but I haven't seen any ballot info.
73 de Dan
------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 10:25:36 -0700
From: Michelle Thompson <mountain.michelle@?????.???>
To: Russ Ramirez <russ.ramirez@?????.???>
Cc: AMSAT BB <amsat-bb@?????.???>
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] AMSAT-NA, another perspective
Message-ID:
<CACvjz2UH-qLpGcvoWGwa7+J1Zm3wx19yGLJRpD5JbMG70pomjw@????.?????.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
We were denied access to corporate records and communications from the
first day of our terms.
We commissioned a formal legal demand letter and sent it to
AMSAT's secretly hired law firm.
Two days later, Joe Spier resigned.
Clayton Coleman was (duly) elected in a short emergency meeting.
Clayton Coleman restored access to communications, and some additional
records were available. He called the first (and only) regular board
meeting of the year, and we heard some reports, made some motions, and
kicked off some plans. This was nearly 5 months into our term.
The biggest step forward at this meeting was Clayton agreed to end the
business relationship with the secretly hired law firm. That spigot was
off.
Things actually looked like they were improving.
No followup since then. No regular meetings since then. No resolution on
who actually signed the checks. Could we recover the money?
When the rest of the board finally angrily revealed they really did know
all about the secretly hired law firm all along, and it was ok with them
that the lawyers were used specifically to make our lives harder, and when
some of them decided to run for another term, we decided to speak up.
That's all we can do.
If members want another year of zero board meetings because the incumbents
really hate Patrick and Michelle asking inconvenient questions about
unauthorized expenses, then members will return the same people to the
board.
Every month, Patrick and I will still be going through the financials
carefully and asking questions. That's an essential part of the job.
If members want a functional board that publishes minutes and can show
progress, collaboration, and decision-making, then please vote for people
that will help do that: Robert McGwier, Howie DeFelice, and Jeff Johns.
Thank you for the opportunity to answer.
-Michelle W5NYV
On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 10:06 AM Russ Ramirez via AMSAT-BB <
amsat-bb@?????.???> wrote:
> I have been a member on/off since 2012. I have never been removed from this
> AMSAT mailing list, but have not always been able to log into the AMSAT.org
> web site. In spite of this, I have renewed my membership, typically at
> Hamvention (until this year, but did so online), and made extra purchases
> to support the work of AMSAT.
>
> I definitely echo the message of Hans BX2ABT. Not everyone is bad, but
> unfortunately too many are not good either.
>
> When reading over each point of view of this ongoing dispute, it is not
> very clear what started this dispute. In a statement in response to
> allegations of financial mismanagement, Clayton wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *AMSAT's corporate records give a full accounting of all expendituresand
> are provided to its Directors upon request, in compliance with ourgoverning
> documents and law of the District of Columbia (D.C.) Ouroffice remains
> closed due to COVID-19, where those documents reside.Furthermore, AMSAT
> complies with IRS rules for 501(c)(3) disclosure ofpublic financial
> documents, such as the Form 990 available on theAMSAT website *
>
> The above statement is either wholly true, or gray, because making a
> statement like this which is completely false would be illegal.
>
> Michelle, you have claimed that you (and Patrick) were denied access to
> financial transaction records upon your written request. Can we simply
> focus on *what* specifically started this whole thing?
>
> Russ Ramirez
> K0WFS
> _______________________________________________
> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions
> expressed
> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
> AMSAT-NA.
> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
> Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>
------------------------------
Message: 10
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 11:09:57 -0700 (PDT)
From: 73 Bob W7LRD <w7lrd@???????.???>
To: amsat-bb <amsat-bb@?????.???>
Subject: [amsat-bb] children
Message-ID: <1478679106.53611.1594663797984@???????.???????.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
When my children were very young they would very occasionally get into
fights and conflicts. I would put them both into a small room in the house
and tell them, "you're not coming out until you can get along.
> 73 Bob W7LRD
------------------------------
Message: 11
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 14:21:02 -0400
From: John Brier <johnbrier@?????.???>
To: Russ Ramirez <russ.ramirez@?????.???>
Cc: AMSAT BB <amsat-bb@?????.???>
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] AMSAT-NA, another perspective
Message-ID:
<CALn0fKOSWvTNq+OwUkz+dU6ZLq-jGOTh-vGQ6ORS+1uugAt4YQ@????.?????.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>From what I understand, what started this was just different opinions
about ways of doing things between Patrick and officers/directors, and
in different ways, between Michelle and officers/directors. They each
have very different contributions to AMSAT, and that they ran into
similar issues from those different avenues gives more credence to
their claims.
With Patrick it was mostly about issues with how AO-92 L-band
operations were run. With Michelle there seems to have been tensions
going back further, between her and Jerry most recently it seems. She
has dealt with sexism in this community. I saw it first hand when she
gave the AMSAT/TAPR keynote at Hamvention a few years ago. I talk
about that here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQ9Rch9MjjM
BTW, IMO I felt there was never a threat she would sue AMSAT over
discrimination. From talking to Michelle, she has dealt with sexism a
lot in her career and much worse than what she reported publicly about
AMSAT. I think she is more interested in doing things and the sexism
was just one of the impediments she experienced related to getting
things done. With the money she has raised recently for AMSAT I think
she is trying to show that, and I think she succeeded. She has a lot
of free time and abilities and has and is offering a lot to the
community.
AMSAT didn't have to hire a lawyer to get an anti-discrimination
policy. There are dozens of open source projects, sponsored by large
corporations, that have policies they could have adapted. It is also
interesting that they adopted a policy after the accusations, and then
decided hers didn't meet the definition of discrimination in the
adopted policy. Not that that can't be done ethically, there is just a
huge pitfall in adopting a policy after accusations have been made.
I am not sure about the accusations she made, but does anyone else
remember what I referred to in my video? Could AMSAT publicly
acknowledge that and say it is not acceptable?
With Patrick, the idea that he harassed Drew over issues with AO-92
L-band does not seem like a reasonable description of what I know
about that situation.
As I said in the video above Drew behaved hypocritically and when
Patrick pointed that out I thought it was courageous. There were also
issues with Drew blocking Patrick on Twitter. That info is on
Patrick's website.
IMO the use of words like attack to describe accusations is over the
top. It was criticism. And what threats were levied? That he would run
for a directors seat? Attack and threat are strong words and some
definitions use violence to describe them.
I don't think Drew or others handled valid criticism well. The
blocking of access to the email archives and then the opening due to
the demand letter show to me that their judgement in blocking that was
wrong, and that they actually haven't been welcoming to the new
directors. Clayton also said in his own letter that the only power
they have is to vote during meetings... and they only had one meeting
in a year!
The last thing I will leave you with is a quote from a blogger I
follow that outlines how the ways we evolved make it exceptionally
hard for anyone to deal with situations like this well:
"As some evolutionary psychologists argue, our moral instincts didn?t
evolve to help us to discern right from wrong, but to help us convince
other humans that we?d make good additions to their clan?that we hate
their enemies, share their affinities, and shake our heads at the same
behaviors.
That?s why having your beliefs affirmed by others feels so good, even
when the belief is devoid of moral significance: that the Packers are
better than the Vikings, or that your favorite movie doesn?t deserve
its bad reviews.
Enjoying this feeling doesn?t even require the belief to be true,
which explains why people are generally uninterested in contradictory
evidence, and why solidarity groups form around claims that the earth
is flat, that vaccines cause autism, and that the real Paul McCartney
died in a 1966 car crash.
Because existing beliefs feel so much better than ideas we don?t yet
believe, we all drift naturally toward the comforts of the echo
chamber."
- David Cain
73, John Brier KG4AKV
On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 1:06 PM Russ Ramirez via AMSAT-BB
<amsat-bb@?????.???> wrote:
>
> I have been a member on/off since 2012. I have never been removed from this
> AMSAT mailing list, but have not always been able to log into the AMSAT.org
> web site. In spite of this, I have renewed my membership, typically at
> Hamvention (until this year, but did so online), and made extra purchases
> to support the work of AMSAT.
>
> I definitely echo the message of Hans BX2ABT. Not everyone is bad, but
> unfortunately too many are not good either.
>
> When reading over each point of view of this ongoing dispute, it is not
> very clear what started this dispute. In a statement in response to
> allegations of financial mismanagement, Clayton wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *AMSAT's corporate records give a full accounting of all expendituresand
> are provided to its Directors upon request, in compliance with ourgoverning
> documents and law of the District of Columbia (D.C.) Ouroffice remains
> closed due to COVID-19, where those documents reside.Furthermore, AMSAT
> complies with IRS rules for 501(c)(3) disclosure ofpublic financial
> documents, such as the Form 990 available on theAMSAT website *
>
> The above statement is either wholly true, or gray, because making a
> statement like this which is completely false would be illegal.
>
> Michelle, you have claimed that you (and Patrick) were denied access to
> financial transaction records upon your written request. Can we simply
> focus on *what* specifically started this whole thing?
>
> Russ Ramirez
> K0WFS
> _______________________________________________
> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions
expressed
> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
AMSAT-NA.
> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
> Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
------------------------------
Subject: Digest Footer
_______________________________________________
Sent via amsat-bb@?????.???.
AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide
without requiring membership. Opinions expressed
are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
AMSAT-NA.
Not an AMSAT member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
------------------------------
End of AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol 15, Issue 245
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