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To : SATDIG@WW
Today's Topics:
1. Still one part missing.... (skip if you don't want to read
about the BoD concerns) (Roy Dean)
2. Re: AMSAT-NA, another perspective (John Brier)
3. Re: Non Profits and Boards (W3AB/GEO)
4. To the current BOD (W3AB/GEO)
5. Re: AMSAT-NA, another perspective (Russ Ramirez)
6. Re: AMSAT Member Mailing list (David Swanson)
7. Re: Brief summary of the "unauthorized expenses" claim
(Steve Kristoff)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 14:22:35 -0400
From: Roy Dean <royldean@?????.???>
To: amsat-bb@?????.???
Subject: [amsat-bb] Still one part missing.... (skip if you don't want
to read about the BoD concerns)
Message-ID:
<CADGPg2v_LeUKbpfmKqvgc3xh1L+=or8SYRDHepmZcWXZ0yw3BA@????.?????.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
[Legal Disclaimer: None of the below should be construed as fact. I am
only trying to confirm what I know in order to make an informed decision
when it comes time to vote. Please feel free to correct any assumptions or
conclusions I may have reached below]
I understand both of Directors Stoddard's and Thompson's concerns about the
validity of certain spending on legal advice.
I understand both of Directors Stoddard's and Thompson's concerns about the
withholding of corporate documents until a legal demand letter was
presented.
I understand the concerns of many of the board and executives about a
conflict of interest with Director Thomson's involvement with ORI.
I understand the concerns of many of the board and executives regarding
harassment policies.
I understand the concerns of some of the members about the potential misuse
of the membership mailing list by an alleged "agent" of Director Thompson
(and/or ORI), as well as understanding the reasoning Director Thompson put
forward for the ORI return address on mailing in question.
One thing I do not understand is why any of this does (or did) affect
Director Stoddard? Why was corporate documentation withheld from him?
From what I can tell, he has no relation to ORI. Is it because his
candidate statement was included with the ORI mailing (I don't even know if
it was, I cannot remember and didn't save my mailing)? Was it because he
hesitated (or refused) to sign the new NDA? Or did he sign the new NDA?
Were all other BoD members asked to sign the NDA prior to being given
access to the corporate documents that were alleged to be withheld from
Dirs. Stoddard and Thompson? Is that NDA now SOP for all new Directors
and Executives?
Again, I have had very positive relationships with almost everybody
involved, so I want to be sure I understand exactly what has happened so
that I can make an informed decision when it is time to vote for new
Directors. If anybody feels that I have portrayed them unfairly or
incorrectly, please let me know.
I know this is just more fuel on the fire, and for that, I apologize. I
hope we can all put this behind us soon.
--Roy
K3RLD
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 14:33:27 -0400
From: John Brier <johnbrier@?????.???>
To: Russ Ramirez <russ.ramirez@?????.???>
Cc: AMSAT BB <amsat-bb@?????.???>
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] AMSAT-NA, another perspective
Message-ID:
<CALn0fKMRmGJb+oJ4rb40sX-QKxj6bESkRCOZiXiuo4S3rGfoPA@????.?????.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
I forgot to mention, I was on the BoD of a local online radio station
(we had intentions of being an LPFM, but that didn't work out). We had
quarterly meetings, and the org was extremely small. So one meeting a
year for an org as large as AMSAT seems very odd to me.
73, John Brier KG4AKV
On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 2:21 PM John Brier <johnbrier@?????.???> wrote:
>
> From what I understand, what started this was just different opinions
> about ways of doing things between Patrick and officers/directors, and
> in different ways, between Michelle and officers/directors. They each
> have very different contributions to AMSAT, and that they ran into
> similar issues from those different avenues gives more credence to
> their claims.
>
> With Patrick it was mostly about issues with how AO-92 L-band
> operations were run. With Michelle there seems to have been tensions
> going back further, between her and Jerry most recently it seems. She
> has dealt with sexism in this community. I saw it first hand when she
> gave the AMSAT/TAPR keynote at Hamvention a few years ago. I talk
> about that here:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQ9Rch9MjjM
>
> BTW, IMO I felt there was never a threat she would sue AMSAT over
> discrimination. From talking to Michelle, she has dealt with sexism a
> lot in her career and much worse than what she reported publicly about
> AMSAT. I think she is more interested in doing things and the sexism
> was just one of the impediments she experienced related to getting
> things done. With the money she has raised recently for AMSAT I think
> she is trying to show that, and I think she succeeded. She has a lot
> of free time and abilities and has and is offering a lot to the
> community.
>
> AMSAT didn't have to hire a lawyer to get an anti-discrimination
> policy. There are dozens of open source projects, sponsored by large
> corporations, that have policies they could have adapted. It is also
> interesting that they adopted a policy after the accusations, and then
> decided hers didn't meet the definition of discrimination in the
> adopted policy. Not that that can't be done ethically, there is just a
> huge pitfall in adopting a policy after accusations have been made.
>
> I am not sure about the accusations she made, but does anyone else
> remember what I referred to in my video? Could AMSAT publicly
> acknowledge that and say it is not acceptable?
>
> With Patrick, the idea that he harassed Drew over issues with AO-92
> L-band does not seem like a reasonable description of what I know
> about that situation.
>
> As I said in the video above Drew behaved hypocritically and when
> Patrick pointed that out I thought it was courageous. There were also
> issues with Drew blocking Patrick on Twitter. That info is on
> Patrick's website.
>
> IMO the use of words like attack to describe accusations is over the
> top. It was criticism. And what threats were levied? That he would run
> for a directors seat? Attack and threat are strong words and some
> definitions use violence to describe them.
>
> I don't think Drew or others handled valid criticism well. The
> blocking of access to the email archives and then the opening due to
> the demand letter show to me that their judgement in blocking that was
> wrong, and that they actually haven't been welcoming to the new
> directors. Clayton also said in his own letter that the only power
> they have is to vote during meetings... and they only had one meeting
> in a year!
>
> The last thing I will leave you with is a quote from a blogger I
> follow that outlines how the ways we evolved make it exceptionally
> hard for anyone to deal with situations like this well:
>
> "As some evolutionary psychologists argue, our moral instincts didn?t
> evolve to help us to discern right from wrong, but to help us convince
> other humans that we?d make good additions to their clan?that we hate
> their enemies, share their affinities, and shake our heads at the same
> behaviors.
>
> That?s why having your beliefs affirmed by others feels so good, even
> when the belief is devoid of moral significance: that the Packers are
> better than the Vikings, or that your favorite movie doesn?t deserve
> its bad reviews.
>
> Enjoying this feeling doesn?t even require the belief to be true,
> which explains why people are generally uninterested in contradictory
> evidence, and why solidarity groups form around claims that the earth
> is flat, that vaccines cause autism, and that the real Paul McCartney
> died in a 1966 car crash.
>
> Because existing beliefs feel so much better than ideas we don?t yet
> believe, we all drift naturally toward the comforts of the echo
> chamber."
>
> - David Cain
>
> 73, John Brier KG4AKV
>
> On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 1:06 PM Russ Ramirez via AMSAT-BB
> <amsat-bb@?????.???> wrote:
> >
> > I have been a member on/off since 2012. I have never been removed from
this
> > AMSAT mailing list, but have not always been able to log into the
AMSAT.org
> > web site. In spite of this, I have renewed my membership, typically at
> > Hamvention (until this year, but did so online), and made extra purchases
> > to support the work of AMSAT.
> >
> > I definitely echo the message of Hans BX2ABT. Not everyone is bad, but
> > unfortunately too many are not good either.
> >
> > When reading over each point of view of this ongoing dispute, it is not
> > very clear what started this dispute. In a statement in response to
> > allegations of financial mismanagement, Clayton wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > *AMSAT's corporate records give a full accounting of all expendituresand
> > are provided to its Directors upon request, in compliance with
ourgoverning
> > documents and law of the District of Columbia (D.C.) Ouroffice remains
> > closed due to COVID-19, where those documents reside.Furthermore, AMSAT
> > complies with IRS rules for 501(c)(3) disclosure ofpublic financial
> > documents, such as the Form 990 available on theAMSAT website *
> >
> > The above statement is either wholly true, or gray, because making a
> > statement like this which is completely false would be illegal.
> >
> > Michelle, you have claimed that you (and Patrick) were denied access to
> > financial transaction records upon your written request. Can we simply
> > focus on *what* specifically started this whole thing?
> >
> > Russ Ramirez
> > K0WFS
> > _______________________________________________
> > Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
> > to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
Opinions expressed
> > are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
AMSAT-NA.
> > Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
> > Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 12:19:51 -0700
From: W3AB/GEO <w3ab@?????.???>
To: Michael Tondee <mat_62@???????.???>
Cc: amsat-bb@?????.???
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Non Profits and Boards
Message-ID: <83795433-31fe-448e-80fd-8ed03752c757@?????.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Michael,
My phone battery was gasping for life and as a result the screen, or my
brain, became scrozzled.
My apologies. All is copasetic now.
?___
Sent from my two way wrist watch
73 de W3AB/GEO?
On Jul 13, 2020, 11:00, at 11:00, Michael Tondee via AMSAT-BB
<amsat-bb@?????.???> wrote:
>I have no idea what this below is supposed to insinuate if anything but
>
>to set the record straight, I am responsible for two recent post both
>of
>which I stand by. The "cookie jar" reference and the opinion that AMSAT
>
>has been stagnant and absent of any real innovation for years. The
>"stagnant" post never went through for whatever reason so I ended up
>forwarding it again. Yes, that's full my name and call, been at the
>same
>QTH for 27 years and my opinions are my own. The call was originally my
>
>late father's.
>
> ?Even though? I'm not a member any more, I keep up with this list
>because I keep hoping this organization will do something to show me it
>
>deserves my support. Needless to say this latest fiasco doesn't do
>that.
>From the outside looking in AMSAT is broken and it was broken long
>before this scandal. Now I'm repeating myself, for what good it does.
>Y'all really should clean house in your next election. Misappropriation
>
>of funds in a non profit is no laughing matter. I will gladly join
>again
>if I see that happen and I begin to see this organization moving
>forward
>again.
>
>73,
>
>Michael W4HIJ
>
>
>
>>
>> Message: 3
>> Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2020 20:33:28 -0700
>> From: W3AB/GEO <w3ab@?????.???>
>> To: Dwayne Sinclair <nna6us@?????.???>
>> Cc: amsat-bb@?????.???
>> Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Non Profits and Boards
>> Message-ID: <cdead1a6-a683-4af9-a92c-8d3083e8d5f4@?????.???>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>>
>> Now it gets even better.
>>
>> Who is NA6US? Dwayne Sinclair? Didn't come up on qrz.com.
>>
>> Why was this posted under
>>
>> MICHAEL A TONDEE, W4HIJ's name?
>>
>>
>> ?___
>> Sent from my two way wrist watch
>> 73 de W3AB/GEO?
>>
>>
>_______________________________________________
>Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
>to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
>Opinions expressed
>are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views
>of AMSAT-NA.
>Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
>program!
>Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 12:23:58 -0700
From: W3AB/GEO <w3ab@?????.???>
To: amsat-bb@?????.???
Subject: [amsat-bb] To the current BOD
Message-ID: <01fa2267-62bb-445e-a6e1-de678bcf2215@?????.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Follow the bylaws, now!
Enough of this BS. Nobody cares who is "right". The GM wants Amsat to move
forward. You have heard them.
?___
Sent from my two way wrist watch
73 de W3AB/GEO?
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 14:44:20 -0500
From: Russ Ramirez <russ.ramirez@?????.???>
To: John Brier <johnbrier@?????.???>
Cc: AMSAT BB <amsat-bb@?????.???>
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] AMSAT-NA, another perspective
Message-ID:
<CAJgz9AY6dNb5guqjDajhvT-oo15oc_J5X7itaTbkYkE2K=DcTQ@????.?????.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
As it happens, I am already familiar with your YT channel and referenced
video, good stuff - thanks for the reply John.
Also want to give Peter, W2PP, a shout for spending so much time reading
through all the documentation there is out there, bravo for taking the time
to do that.
The two observations I have made is that 1) there seems to be right and
wrong on both sides, and that 2) the entire BoD should resign, opening up
the positions to anyone who's willing to put forth details on what they
plan to contribute to AMSAT if elected, and let the rest of us decide from
there based (mostly) on not knowing any of the players personally. If that
means delaying the next election cycle, then so be it. I agree with the
opinion that others shared that AMSAT-NA is/was falling behind the other
global organizations; simply based on who's putting Sats into orbit. Maybe
an attempt has been made to get support from the likes of Elon Musk or
similar, but if there's not even been an attempt made to do something
along these lines, that would be unfortunate. Seems like putting Sats into
space is about more than ham radio, or pure commercial interests.
Russ K0WFS
On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 1:33 PM John Brier <johnbrier@?????.???> wrote:
> I forgot to mention, I was on the BoD of a local online radio station
> (we had intentions of being an LPFM, but that didn't work out). We had
> quarterly meetings, and the org was extremely small. So one meeting a
> year for an org as large as AMSAT seems very odd to me.
>
> 73, John Brier KG4AKV
>
> On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 2:21 PM John Brier <johnbrier@?????.???> wrote:
> >
> > From what I understand, what started this was just different opinions
> > about ways of doing things between Patrick and officers/directors, and
> > in different ways, between Michelle and officers/directors. They each
> > have very different contributions to AMSAT, and that they ran into
> > similar issues from those different avenues gives more credence to
> > their claims.
> >
> > With Patrick it was mostly about issues with how AO-92 L-band
> > operations were run. With Michelle there seems to have been tensions
> > going back further, between her and Jerry most recently it seems. She
> > has dealt with sexism in this community. I saw it first hand when she
> > gave the AMSAT/TAPR keynote at Hamvention a few years ago. I talk
> > about that here:
> >
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQ9Rch9MjjM
> >
> > BTW, IMO I felt there was never a threat she would sue AMSAT over
> > discrimination. From talking to Michelle, she has dealt with sexism a
> > lot in her career and much worse than what she reported publicly about
> > AMSAT. I think she is more interested in doing things and the sexism
> > was just one of the impediments she experienced related to getting
> > things done. With the money she has raised recently for AMSAT I think
> > she is trying to show that, and I think she succeeded. She has a lot
> > of free time and abilities and has and is offering a lot to the
> > community.
> >
> > AMSAT didn't have to hire a lawyer to get an anti-discrimination
> > policy. There are dozens of open source projects, sponsored by large
> > corporations, that have policies they could have adapted. It is also
> > interesting that they adopted a policy after the accusations, and then
> > decided hers didn't meet the definition of discrimination in the
> > adopted policy. Not that that can't be done ethically, there is just a
> > huge pitfall in adopting a policy after accusations have been made.
> >
> > I am not sure about the accusations she made, but does anyone else
> > remember what I referred to in my video? Could AMSAT publicly
> > acknowledge that and say it is not acceptable?
> >
> > With Patrick, the idea that he harassed Drew over issues with AO-92
> > L-band does not seem like a reasonable description of what I know
> > about that situation.
> >
> > As I said in the video above Drew behaved hypocritically and when
> > Patrick pointed that out I thought it was courageous. There were also
> > issues with Drew blocking Patrick on Twitter. That info is on
> > Patrick's website.
> >
> > IMO the use of words like attack to describe accusations is over the
> > top. It was criticism. And what threats were levied? That he would run
> > for a directors seat? Attack and threat are strong words and some
> > definitions use violence to describe them.
> >
> > I don't think Drew or others handled valid criticism well. The
> > blocking of access to the email archives and then the opening due to
> > the demand letter show to me that their judgement in blocking that was
> > wrong, and that they actually haven't been welcoming to the new
> > directors. Clayton also said in his own letter that the only power
> > they have is to vote during meetings... and they only had one meeting
> > in a year!
> >
> > The last thing I will leave you with is a quote from a blogger I
> > follow that outlines how the ways we evolved make it exceptionally
> > hard for anyone to deal with situations like this well:
> >
> > "As some evolutionary psychologists argue, our moral instincts didn?t
> > evolve to help us to discern right from wrong, but to help us convince
> > other humans that we?d make good additions to their clan?that we hate
> > their enemies, share their affinities, and shake our heads at the same
> > behaviors.
> >
> > That?s why having your beliefs affirmed by others feels so good, even
> > when the belief is devoid of moral significance: that the Packers are
> > better than the Vikings, or that your favorite movie doesn?t deserve
> > its bad reviews.
> >
> > Enjoying this feeling doesn?t even require the belief to be true,
> > which explains why people are generally uninterested in contradictory
> > evidence, and why solidarity groups form around claims that the earth
> > is flat, that vaccines cause autism, and that the real Paul McCartney
> > died in a 1966 car crash.
> >
> > Because existing beliefs feel so much better than ideas we don?t yet
> > believe, we all drift naturally toward the comforts of the echo
> > chamber."
> >
> > - David Cain
> >
> > 73, John Brier KG4AKV
> >
> > On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 1:06 PM Russ Ramirez via AMSAT-BB
> > <amsat-bb@?????.???> wrote:
> > >
> > > I have been a member on/off since 2012. I have never been removed from
> this
> > > AMSAT mailing list, but have not always been able to log into the
> AMSAT.org
> > > web site. In spite of this, I have renewed my membership, typically at
> > > Hamvention (until this year, but did so online), and made extra
> purchases
> > > to support the work of AMSAT.
> > >
> > > I definitely echo the message of Hans BX2ABT. Not everyone is bad, but
> > > unfortunately too many are not good either.
> > >
> > > When reading over each point of view of this ongoing dispute, it is not
> > > very clear what started this dispute. In a statement in response to
> > > allegations of financial mismanagement, Clayton wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > *AMSAT's corporate records give a full accounting of all
> expendituresand
> > > are provided to its Directors upon request, in compliance with
> ourgoverning
> > > documents and law of the District of Columbia (D.C.) Ouroffice remains
> > > closed due to COVID-19, where those documents reside.Furthermore, AMSAT
> > > complies with IRS rules for 501(c)(3) disclosure ofpublic financial
> > > documents, such as the Form 990 available on theAMSAT website *
> > >
> > > The above statement is either wholly true, or gray, because making a
> > > statement like this which is completely false would be illegal.
> > >
> > > Michelle, you have claimed that you (and Patrick) were denied access to
> > > financial transaction records upon your written request. Can we simply
> > > focus on *what* specifically started this whole thing?
> > >
> > > Russ Ramirez
> > > K0WFS
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
> > > to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
> Opinions expressed
> > > are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views
> of AMSAT-NA.
> > > Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
> program!
> > > Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 14:55:28 -0500
From: David Swanson <dave@?????????????.???>
To: Bruce Perens <bruce@??????.???>
Cc: AMSAT BB <amsat-bb@?????.???>
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] AMSAT Member Mailing list
Message-ID:
<CANq+eyWya+vbTgG=C+9JKoe6BpX44MEMh9jwEzhpqZQLo_robg@????.?????.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
My apologies on the Twitter claim - when I tried loading it from source
nothing was displaying pre January 28th, 2020 - the day of your 'I am
signing off of social networking' declaration. (How'd that go btw?) I only
assumed you had deleted your tweets.
As to your never ending story changing about the mailing list, I was born
at night, but it wasn't last night. Go try your story on another mark.
-Dave, KG5CCI
On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 2:45 PM Bruce Perens <bruce@??????.???> wrote:
> David,
>
> My tweet was NOT deleted, and is still on twitter at
> https://twitter.com/BrucePerens/status/1154844208458416128
> As stated repeatedly, both by myself and Michelle, I did not handle the
> mailing list, she did. Which was 100% her right as a candidate.
>
> Thanks
>
> Bruce
>
> On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 11:26 AM David Swanson via AMSAT-BB <
> amsat-bb@?????.???> wrote:
>
>> It's always fun to remind folks tripping over their own feat lying that
>> the
>> internet is forever. From a Bruce Perens Tweet on July 13, 2020:
>>
>> "Please see my letter on the web, or the paper copy I've mailed to
>> everyone
>> one of you".
>>
>> Of course the original tweet was deleted, but the wayback machine never
>> forgets. Don't Believe me? http://druidnetworks.com/2020-07-13.png
>>
>> If you still think the membership list wasn't compromised, I just heard
>> Director Thompson will be auctioning off their ocean front property in
>> Arizona to all the members this year to raise funds for their microwave,
>> digital only, strictly open source crowd funded, vegan, social justice
>> aware cubesat launch to Proxima Centauri. Of course this launch will only
>> come after 10 years of ground station development, but fueled with enough
>> hopes, dreams and promises it will become a reality!
>>
>> For the rest of us who actually want to keep amateur radio in (real) space
>> and are disgusted at the violations of privacy that occured by 3rd parties
>> working to get Director Thompson and Director Stoddard elected, well, you
>> should know what to do.
>>
>> -Dave, KG5CCI
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 9:24 AM Michelle Thompson <
>> mountain.michelle@?????.???> wrote:
>>
>> > No database went anywhere except to candidates. This is allowed in the
>> > bylaws.
>> >
>> > Then, an automated bulk mail printing server was used. I recommended the
>> > company to Brennan Price for this year's mailing. Good service,
>> > inexpensive.
>> >
>> > Return addresses don't magically transfer information.
>> >
>> > -Michelle W5NYV
>> >
>> >
>> > On Mon, Jul 13, 2020, 04:32 David Swanson <dave@?????????????.???>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Spin Spin Spin. The simple truth here is Director Thompson took the
>> AMSAT
>> >> member database, and handed it over to a 3rd party competing entity
>> for the
>> >> purpose of solicitation. I know I did not give ORI my home address,
>> yet ORI
>> >> sent me a letter. This was a violation of my privacy, and for AMSAT
>> >> members living in the EU, this was a violation of the law. Any attempt
>> to
>> >> explain this away is just more lies and deceit from Director Thompson
>> about
>> >> the shady practices they have engaged in over the past few years. As I
>> keep
>> >> saying, this isn't a one time thing, this is a pattern of
>> >> reprehensible behavior that is unbecoming of an elected position and
>> this
>> >> community. Director Thompson and Director Stoddard should resign.
>> >>
>> >> -Dave, KG5CCI
>> >>
>> >> On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 5:33 AM Michelle Thompson via AMSAT-BB <
>> >> amsat-bb@?????.???> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> Yes, I can.
>> >>>
>> >>> That part of Clayton's letter is wrong and has been repeatedly
>> clarified
>> >>> before. Including at the 2019 annual board meeting, where Tom Clark
>> asked
>> >>> me about it, as part of the record.
>> >>>
>> >>> Clayton Coleman was secretary in 2019.
>> >>>
>> >>> He ran the election.
>> >>>
>> >>> He decided that candidate statements were limited in length to 350
>> words,
>> >>> would be subject to editorial control by AMSAT, and could not include
>> >>> links. These new rules were given to us right before the 4th of July
>> >>> holiday with a deadline of the 7th.
>> >>>
>> >>> This is different than any election before, where statements went
>> >>> directly
>> >>> to the printer from the candidate, were not limited in length, and no
>> one
>> >>> from AMSAT leadership (who might be running for reelection themselves)
>> >>> had
>> >>> any control over the content of their challengers' statements.
>> >>>
>> >>> We got these rules right before ballots went out. We (four
>> challengers)
>> >>> already had normal-sized statements on the web and they had been up
>> six
>> >>> weeks at that point. Those were the ones we wanted to use, and link
>> to.
>> >>>
>> >>> We knew that as candidates, we had the right to request the mailing
>> list,
>> >>> and send our own statements, independent of the ballot.
>> >>>
>> >>> I requested the address list and got the DBASE4 export.
>> >>>
>> >>> Bruce Perens had already written a letter of support and distributed
>> it
>> >>> widely on the web. It introduced us and included our four full bios
>> and
>> >>> statements.
>> >>>
>> >>> I asked Bruce if we could use his letter in the mailing. He said yes.
>> >>> Since
>> >>> he was President of Open Research Institute at the time, he wanted the
>> >>> return address to not be his private home address, but a business
>> >>> address.
>> >>> That was ORI's address. He was the author of the endorsement, so I
>> used
>> >>> his
>> >>> preferred return address.
>> >>>
>> >>> I converted the DBASE4 to a more useful format, fixed the 50 or so
>> >>> undeliverable addresses, and found an inexpensive printer. Then I sent
>> >>> the
>> >>> letter from Bruce to the printer, with the bios and statements.
>> >>>
>> >>> That turned out to be a good thing. Bios and statements were not
>> included
>> >>> with the ballots mailed out, at all.
>> >>>
>> >>> If we had not sent the letter, then name recognition would be the
>> primary
>> >>> factor. We were running against well-known people.
>> >>>
>> >>> We complained about this. It was unusual departure from the past and
>> >>> seemed
>> >>> set up to let leadership benefit from being incumbents.
>> >>>
>> >>> The original proposal from Clayton was for an electronic only ballot.
>> >>> Patrick said that the bylaws were a bit clunky here and it did need
>> to be
>> >>> mailed out on paper. Paper was required.
>> >>>
>> >>> This is a big reason why I made a motion at our one board meeting, in
>> >>> March, for a bylaws committee.
>> >>>
>> >>> This bylaw isn't hard to fix. There's lots of examples out there of
>> >>> organizations doing electronic voting with working published bylaws.
>> >>>
>> >>> Bruce made it very clear, when the incumbents stirred up the pot about
>> >>> the
>> >>> return address, that it was an endorsement from him, this was commonly
>> >>> done
>> >>> in political campaigns, and it would be grossly improper for me to use
>> >>> AMSATs return address because that would make it look like Bruce was
>> >>> speaking for or was from AMSAT. That was not going to happen. *That*
>> >>> would
>> >>> be improper.
>> >>>
>> >>> No one candidate wanted their personal address used as a return
>> address.
>> >>> We
>> >>> were mailing this as a slate and splitting the cost. We didn't have
>> time
>> >>> or
>> >>> funds to make an organization or rent a box for one letter on short
>> >>> notice.
>> >>> The printer required a real return address.
>> >>>
>> >>> No one had the address list except the candidates. Namely me because I
>> >>> contracted the printer and handled the DBASE4 address conversion. That
>> >>> is a
>> >>> neat story in and of itself,, for another time.
>> >>>
>> >>> Bruce only sent the text to me and chipped in some money for postage.
>> >>>
>> >>> The printing was automated in Van Nuys, CA.
>> >>>
>> >>> All of this is known to Clayton Coleman and his friends on the board
>> that
>> >>> signed the statement from this week. It has been explained by Bruce
>> >>> publicly, and by me several times on social media. Tom Clark brought
>> it
>> >>> up
>> >>> at the 2019 annual board meeting because of the return address
>> >>> pot-stirring. I explained it there too. Like I said, it's on the
>> record.
>> >>>
>> >>> I think insinuating the addresses were mishandled is a deliberate
>> >>> twisting
>> >>> of honest efforts to scramble to get uncensored candidate statements
>> out
>> >>> to
>> >>> voters on short notice. We just didn't have a lot of time, and Bruce
>> was
>> >>> very generous in writing a cover letter.
>> >>>
>> >>> Again, candidates are allowed the use of the mailing lists for
>> election
>> >>> purposes.
>> >>>
>> >>> So, no, there was no breach. Clayton knows all this.
>> >>>
>> >>> Saying it the way he did is a cheap shot at me, Patrick, Bruce Perens,
>> >>> and
>> >>> ORI.
>> >>>
>> >>> -Michelle W5NYV
>> >>>
>> >>> On Sun, Jul 12, 2020, 19:11 Kevin via AMSAT-BB <amsat-bb@?????.???>
>> >>> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> > Hello All,
>> >>> >
>> >>> > In a previous email to the BB I posted the link to the letter we
>> all
>> >>> > received as members.
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>>
>>
https://www.amsat.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/20200710_AMSAT_Lead
ership_Explains_Legal_Expenses.pdf
>> >>> >
>> >>> > I was re-reading it and something caught my eye that I had missed
>> >>> before.
>> >>> >
>> >>> > "AMSAT did not provide a copy of its membership mailing addresses to
>> >>> > Open Research Institute."
>> >>> >
>> >>> > Just how was our mailing list compromised? This seems like a
>> >>> serious
>> >>> > breech of security, was this a hack? was any other information lost?
>> >>> > was it ever found out how it happened? is our mailing list as they
>> say
>> >>> > "out in the wind"?
>> >>> >
>> >>> > Michelle could you possibly check from the ORI side and backtrack
>> how
>> >>> > ORI came into possession of the AMSAT mailing list, was it something
>> >>> > that was procured online?
>> >>> >
>> >>> > AMSAT needs to follow up on this privacy issue and report back what
>> it
>> >>> > found and any steps that were taken to prevent this from happening
>> in
>> >>> > the future.
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> > I look forward to an answer
>> >>> >
>> >>> > 73 Kevin WA7FWF #19623
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> > _______________________________________________
>> >>> > Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum
>> available
>> >>> > to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
>> >>> Opinions
>> >>> > expressed
>> >>> > are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official
>> views
>> >>> of
>> >>> > AMSAT-NA.
>> >>> > Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
>> >>> program!
>> >>> > Subscription settings:
>> https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>> >>> >
>> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
>> >>> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
>> >>> Opinions expressed
>> >>> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views
>> of
>> >>> AMSAT-NA.
>> >>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
>> >>> program!
>> >>> Subscription settings:
>> https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>> >>>
>> >>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
>> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
>> Opinions expressed
>> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
>> AMSAT-NA.
>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
>> Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>>
>
>
> --
> Bruce Perens - CEO at stealth startup. I'll tell you what it is eventually
> :-)
>
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 15:59:48 -0400
From: "Steve Kristoff" <skristof@???????.???>
To: "Amsat - BBs" <amsat-bb@?????.???>
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Brief summary of the "unauthorized expenses"
claim
Message-ID: <1fdeda8fb65dcf349de22015c4600119@???????.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
But even in your own evaluation there are contradictions.
Quote from your email: "If an expense went to the board for approval, it
would show up in the
? minutes of that board meeting."
Further down your email: "- In this case, the members of the AMSAT board at
the time said that the
? expenses were authorized."
?
Then, by your own evaluation of the by-laws, if the members of the board
authorized the expenditures (second quote), shouldn't that authorization
show up in the minutes of the board meeting? (first quote)
Steve AI9IN
?
----- Original Message -----
From: Rich Gopstein via AMSAT-BB (amsat-bb@?????.????
Date: 07/13/20 15:25
To: Amsat - BBs (AMSAT-BB@?????.????
Subject: [amsat-bb] Brief summary of the "unauthorized expenses" claim
First: I'm not a lawyer. ?These are my observations only.
This is what I learned over the past few days while researching the claim
that the AMSAT money spent on legal services related to the new directors
was "unauthorized".
? - I read the AMSAT bylaws. ?They are very readable, BTW - and not long.
? - The bylaws say that expenses can be authorized either by the board
? itself or by the officers of AMSAT if the board delegates that authority.
? - If an expense went to the board for approval, it would show up in the
? minutes of that board meeting.
? - If an expense were authorized by an officer, then it wouldn't show up
? in the minutes of a board meeting.
? - The claim that the expenses were unauthorized was based on the
? observation that there was no record in the board meeting minutes of the
? authorization. ?However, as mentioned above, not everything has to go to
? the board for approval. ?And that decision is up to the board itself.
? - In this case, the members of the AMSAT board at the time said that the
? expenses were authorized.
? - Since the board has the authority to authorize expenditures (directly
? or indirectly) and they say the expenses were authorized, that indicates to
? me that the expenses were authorized.
Note: Michelle and Patrick were not members of the board when this
happened. ?They were analyzing this after the fact.
Rich
KD2CQ
AMSAT Life Member
_______________________________________________
------------------------------
Subject: Digest Footer
_______________________________________________
Sent via amsat-bb@?????.???.
AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide
without requiring membership. Opinions expressed
are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
AMSAT-NA.
Not an AMSAT member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
------------------------------
End of AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol 15, Issue 246
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