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CX2SA > SATDIG 14.07.20 01:10l 1172 Lines 41514 Bytes #999 (0) @ WW
BID : AMSATBB15247
Read: GUEST
Subj: AMSAT-BB-digest V15 247
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Sent: 200713/2308Z @:CX2SA.SAL.URY.SOAM #:34899 [Salto] FBB7.00e $:AMSATBB15247
From: CX2SA@CX2SA.SAL.URY.SOAM
To : SATDIG@WW
Today's Topics:
1. Re: Members Please Read (Bruce Perens)
2. Why we are having this big unpleasant argument on your
satellite mailing list (Bruce Perens)
3. A question (Efrem Acosta)
4. Re: AMSAT Member Mailing list (Bruce Perens)
5. Re: AMSAT Member Mailing list (Kenneth P Alexander)
6. Re: AMSAT Member Mailing list (David Swanson)
7. Re: when is the election being discussed? (Fernando Ramirez)
8. Re: AMSAT-NA, another perspective (Arthur Feller)
9. Re: AMSAT-NA, another perspective (GEO Badger)
10. Re: AMSAT Member Mailing list (Bruce Perens)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 11:09:12 -0700
From: Bruce Perens <bruce@??????.???>
To: "Paul F. Merrill" <marinesvcs@?????.???>, AMSAT BB
<amsat-bb@?????.???>
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Members Please Read
Message-ID:
<CAK2MWOv13HXELW1kRJiZWGo2GUTBXgOV39atn5xVWY5SrKztzw@????.?????.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
The point I was trying to make was that by posing Robert's Rules as the
tool of unsavory individuals, you seem to pose all rules that way. I think
we should both agree that corporate directors should know their bylaws. It
was my experience that Clayton did not read them before taking on operating
the AMSAT election. AMSAT had to be told that it had a responsibility to
provide addresses to the candidates for campaigning. The bylaws also call
for the organizations publications to be available for campaigning - which
is still not being fulfilled.
Thanks
Bruce
On Mon, Jul 13, 2020, 12:31 AM Paul F. Merrill <marinesvcs@?????.???> wrote:
> I know what they are. It was an example, perhaps too subtle, of the
> continually-plumbed depths of human dipshittery.
>
> On Sun, Jul 12, 2020 at 23:01 Bruce Perens <bruce@??????.???> wrote:
>
>> Paul,
>>
>> Roberts Rules are regarding parliamentary procedure. AMSAT's bylaws are
>> at
>> https://www.amsat.org/bylaws-of-the-radio-amateur-satellite-corporation/
>> . They do not specify parliamentary procedure. They are about
>> responsibilities of a director, elections, etc. And if you have the choice,
>> Roberts is an antique, good parliamentarians use Sturgis.
>>
>> Bruce
>>
>> On Sun, Jul 12, 2020, 9:12 PM Paul F. Merrill via AMSAT-BB <
>> amsat-bb@?????.???> wrote:
>>
>>> I agree that this mailing list has strayed from its strongest
>>> contribution:
>>> satellite information, discussion, and mentoring.
>>>
>>> I come from, and have been on the BOD of, a professional organization
>>> for a
>>> number of years now.
>>>
>>> FWIW, I know too well that an organization often lawyers up to protect
>>> itself, and in our issues, our attorney was engaged to act solely on
>>> behalf
>>> of the Organization and not necessarily current management.
>>>
>>> This thread has turned in to a long, ugly diatribe filled with
>>> accusations,
>>> counter-accusations, and painfully-obvious shills. I am a
>>> recently-renewed
>>> member who doesn?t have a dog in the fight, so I just want what?s best
>>> for
>>> AMSAT.
>>>
>>> Sadly, the stereotypes are starting to show - the members who contribute
>>> nothing but want to tear down those ?In power,? the members who
>>> contribute
>>> nothing and don?t want anyone to make waves, and the few who actually do
>>> anything. As a number of people have commented, working in a non-profit
>>> or
>>> unpaid leadership role is utterly thankless, which is lost on many
>>> people -
>>> especially those who have never labored in this sort of endeavor.
>>>
>>> My favorite story from our times of trouble is when our Parliamentarian
>>> said, ?Roberts Rules are the last refuge of a scoundrel. Grown men and
>>> women should be able to comport themselves reasonably...but then I?d be
>>> out
>>> of a job.? I?m taking a little license with his exact words, but the
>>> sentiment, along with my experience, formed my native distrust of those
>>> who
>>> are right and everyone and everything before them is wrong. So...there?s
>>> my bias. I will examine that, and all the information I can before I
>>> vote. I hope everyone else will take the time and expend the effort to
>>> vote as intelligently as they can.
>>>
>>> My overriding guidance to my Association is that we contribute to the
>>> group
>>> so that we all benefit from the group. A strong organization should
>>> outlive us.
>>>
>>> Personally, I can?t wait to vote and hopefully put a fork in this.
>>>
>>> Paul / W7IV
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ????????-
>>>
>>> Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2020 19:27:24 -0700
>>> From: "Daron Wilson" <daron@??????.???>
>>> To: "'AMSAT BB'" <amsat-bb@?????.???>
>>> Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Members Please Read
>>> Message-ID: <00b501d658bd$26119cc0$7234d640$@???>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>>
>>> Is there a bulletin board that discusses amateur radio satellites
>>> operations still? Asking for a friend. This is getting old.
>>>
>>>
>>> Daron N7HQR
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
>>> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
>>> Opinions expressed
>>> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
>>> AMSAT-NA.
>>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
>>> program!
>>> Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>>>
>>
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 12:13:46 -0700
From: Bruce Perens <bruce@??????.???>
To: AMSAT BB <amsat-bb@?????.???>
Subject: [amsat-bb] Why we are having this big unpleasant argument on
your satellite mailing list
Message-ID:
<CAK2MWOsL+EO6q3QnLjL395uSeLZR8QnkUuD9q3nJ+O4e7Kvytw@????.?????.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Most of you are members of AMSAT. IMO the organization has some serious
problems, and as members it is your duty to steer the organization with
your votes. That means that you should remain aware of what is going on and
you should make an informed vote. The satellite discussions go on, mostly
uninterrupted, all year. A short break for politics is not unreasonable,
and acrimonious discussion is to be expected when we take that break.
Organisations are run by people who would not be doing the work if they did
not have strong emotions about it. And they all have their own failings.
Unfortunately, volunteer non-profit directors (and many public ones in big
corporations) never learn a critical skill of democracy: *how to deal
properly with opposition. *That is the root of what we are arguing about
now. Opposition are not the enemy! Yet, they are clearly being treated as
such. They are simply people who would reform the organization or take it
in a different direction from the incumbents.
In this case, Michelle and Patrick, before they were elected, were the
loyal opposition - dedicated to a better organization, and deeply troubled
by the decisions and conduct of the incumbent board. The incumbent's
response was not to work with the opposition, but to hunker down and use
lawyers. To the incumbent's great distress, the very same people got sent
to the board by the membership! Leading to more lawyers. IMO the incumbents
should have read this as a signal from the membership, rather than doubling
down their resistance.
The sad reality is that the newly-elected directors have never been allowed
to function as directors. You should be concerned, since they are the
people whom you elected to represent you. The main means used to disable
your elected representatives has been refusal by the incumbents to hold
board meetings. This refusal is almost total, with exactly *one* meeting
being held after the organization's annual convention.
The second means used to disenfranchise the newly-elected directors was
that the incumbents withheld information which a director would generally
be expected to have access to. As it happened, this information was at
least in part discussion of those very same people, and contracting of
legal counsel in a process against them.
Every board has the right to legal counsel. But it's expensive, and must be
used wisely. This was not a wise use. A wise use would have been to engage
the opposition rather than to hunker down.
One very large cause of all of this is that the same people have been
running AMSAT for a very long time, and it becomes an echo chamber after a
while - the us-vs-them mentality of the board vs. the opposition - but
really the board vs. everyone else - becomes self-reinforcing.
This is obviously wrong for the organization. The solution is simple, and
every organization needs it: *regular turn-over of the people in the
organization's leadership. *Not the stratification that we currently have.
You can fix this by electing more new blood to the board.
Thanks
Bruce
--
Bruce Perens - CEO at stealth startup. I'll tell you what it is eventually
:-)
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 15:06:31 -0400
From: Efrem Acosta <W2CZ@?????????.???>
To: amsat-bb@?????.???
Subject: [amsat-bb] A question
Message-ID: <F1920021-98F0-4650-B305-74A7DB72521E@?????????.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Is it true all posts now on this board are being held for approval by a
moderator?
73 De W2CZ
Sent from my iPhone
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 12:45:19 -0700
From: Bruce Perens <bruce@??????.???>
To: David Swanson <dave@?????????????.???>
Cc: AMSAT BB <amsat-bb@?????.???>
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] AMSAT Member Mailing list
Message-ID:
<CAK2MWOv-v8yj5NwO7XKz=nwxb+p1u-7FUF+fTJUKuNvQ7BPP7g@????.?????.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
David,
My tweet was NOT deleted, and is still on twitter at
https://twitter.com/BrucePerens/status/1154844208458416128
As stated repeatedly, both by myself and Michelle, I did not handle the
mailing list, she did. Which was 100% her right as a candidate.
Thanks
Bruce
On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 11:26 AM David Swanson via AMSAT-BB <
amsat-bb@?????.???> wrote:
> It's always fun to remind folks tripping over their own feat lying that the
> internet is forever. From a Bruce Perens Tweet on July 13, 2020:
>
> "Please see my letter on the web, or the paper copy I've mailed to everyone
> one of you".
>
> Of course the original tweet was deleted, but the wayback machine never
> forgets. Don't Believe me? http://druidnetworks.com/2020-07-13.png
>
> If you still think the membership list wasn't compromised, I just heard
> Director Thompson will be auctioning off their ocean front property in
> Arizona to all the members this year to raise funds for their microwave,
> digital only, strictly open source crowd funded, vegan, social justice
> aware cubesat launch to Proxima Centauri. Of course this launch will only
> come after 10 years of ground station development, but fueled with enough
> hopes, dreams and promises it will become a reality!
>
> For the rest of us who actually want to keep amateur radio in (real) space
> and are disgusted at the violations of privacy that occured by 3rd parties
> working to get Director Thompson and Director Stoddard elected, well, you
> should know what to do.
>
> -Dave, KG5CCI
>
> On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 9:24 AM Michelle Thompson <
> mountain.michelle@?????.???> wrote:
>
> > No database went anywhere except to candidates. This is allowed in the
> > bylaws.
> >
> > Then, an automated bulk mail printing server was used. I recommended the
> > company to Brennan Price for this year's mailing. Good service,
> > inexpensive.
> >
> > Return addresses don't magically transfer information.
> >
> > -Michelle W5NYV
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Jul 13, 2020, 04:32 David Swanson <dave@?????????????.???>
> wrote:
> >
> >> Spin Spin Spin. The simple truth here is Director Thompson took the
> AMSAT
> >> member database, and handed it over to a 3rd party competing entity for
> the
> >> purpose of solicitation. I know I did not give ORI my home address, yet
> ORI
> >> sent me a letter. This was a violation of my privacy, and for AMSAT
> >> members living in the EU, this was a violation of the law. Any attempt
> to
> >> explain this away is just more lies and deceit from Director Thompson
> about
> >> the shady practices they have engaged in over the past few years. As I
> keep
> >> saying, this isn't a one time thing, this is a pattern of
> >> reprehensible behavior that is unbecoming of an elected position and
> this
> >> community. Director Thompson and Director Stoddard should resign.
> >>
> >> -Dave, KG5CCI
> >>
> >> On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 5:33 AM Michelle Thompson via AMSAT-BB <
> >> amsat-bb@?????.???> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Yes, I can.
> >>>
> >>> That part of Clayton's letter is wrong and has been repeatedly
> clarified
> >>> before. Including at the 2019 annual board meeting, where Tom Clark
> asked
> >>> me about it, as part of the record.
> >>>
> >>> Clayton Coleman was secretary in 2019.
> >>>
> >>> He ran the election.
> >>>
> >>> He decided that candidate statements were limited in length to 350
> words,
> >>> would be subject to editorial control by AMSAT, and could not include
> >>> links. These new rules were given to us right before the 4th of July
> >>> holiday with a deadline of the 7th.
> >>>
> >>> This is different than any election before, where statements went
> >>> directly
> >>> to the printer from the candidate, were not limited in length, and no
> one
> >>> from AMSAT leadership (who might be running for reelection themselves)
> >>> had
> >>> any control over the content of their challengers' statements.
> >>>
> >>> We got these rules right before ballots went out. We (four challengers)
> >>> already had normal-sized statements on the web and they had been up six
> >>> weeks at that point. Those were the ones we wanted to use, and link to.
> >>>
> >>> We knew that as candidates, we had the right to request the mailing
> list,
> >>> and send our own statements, independent of the ballot.
> >>>
> >>> I requested the address list and got the DBASE4 export.
> >>>
> >>> Bruce Perens had already written a letter of support and distributed it
> >>> widely on the web. It introduced us and included our four full bios and
> >>> statements.
> >>>
> >>> I asked Bruce if we could use his letter in the mailing. He said yes.
> >>> Since
> >>> he was President of Open Research Institute at the time, he wanted the
> >>> return address to not be his private home address, but a business
> >>> address.
> >>> That was ORI's address. He was the author of the endorsement, so I used
> >>> his
> >>> preferred return address.
> >>>
> >>> I converted the DBASE4 to a more useful format, fixed the 50 or so
> >>> undeliverable addresses, and found an inexpensive printer. Then I sent
> >>> the
> >>> letter from Bruce to the printer, with the bios and statements.
> >>>
> >>> That turned out to be a good thing. Bios and statements were not
> included
> >>> with the ballots mailed out, at all.
> >>>
> >>> If we had not sent the letter, then name recognition would be the
> primary
> >>> factor. We were running against well-known people.
> >>>
> >>> We complained about this. It was unusual departure from the past and
> >>> seemed
> >>> set up to let leadership benefit from being incumbents.
> >>>
> >>> The original proposal from Clayton was for an electronic only ballot.
> >>> Patrick said that the bylaws were a bit clunky here and it did need to
> be
> >>> mailed out on paper. Paper was required.
> >>>
> >>> This is a big reason why I made a motion at our one board meeting, in
> >>> March, for a bylaws committee.
> >>>
> >>> This bylaw isn't hard to fix. There's lots of examples out there of
> >>> organizations doing electronic voting with working published bylaws.
> >>>
> >>> Bruce made it very clear, when the incumbents stirred up the pot about
> >>> the
> >>> return address, that it was an endorsement from him, this was commonly
> >>> done
> >>> in political campaigns, and it would be grossly improper for me to use
> >>> AMSATs return address because that would make it look like Bruce was
> >>> speaking for or was from AMSAT. That was not going to happen. *That*
> >>> would
> >>> be improper.
> >>>
> >>> No one candidate wanted their personal address used as a return
> address.
> >>> We
> >>> were mailing this as a slate and splitting the cost. We didn't have
> time
> >>> or
> >>> funds to make an organization or rent a box for one letter on short
> >>> notice.
> >>> The printer required a real return address.
> >>>
> >>> No one had the address list except the candidates. Namely me because I
> >>> contracted the printer and handled the DBASE4 address conversion. That
> >>> is a
> >>> neat story in and of itself,, for another time.
> >>>
> >>> Bruce only sent the text to me and chipped in some money for postage.
> >>>
> >>> The printing was automated in Van Nuys, CA.
> >>>
> >>> All of this is known to Clayton Coleman and his friends on the board
> that
> >>> signed the statement from this week. It has been explained by Bruce
> >>> publicly, and by me several times on social media. Tom Clark brought it
> >>> up
> >>> at the 2019 annual board meeting because of the return address
> >>> pot-stirring. I explained it there too. Like I said, it's on the
> record.
> >>>
> >>> I think insinuating the addresses were mishandled is a deliberate
> >>> twisting
> >>> of honest efforts to scramble to get uncensored candidate statements
> out
> >>> to
> >>> voters on short notice. We just didn't have a lot of time, and Bruce
> was
> >>> very generous in writing a cover letter.
> >>>
> >>> Again, candidates are allowed the use of the mailing lists for election
> >>> purposes.
> >>>
> >>> So, no, there was no breach. Clayton knows all this.
> >>>
> >>> Saying it the way he did is a cheap shot at me, Patrick, Bruce Perens,
> >>> and
> >>> ORI.
> >>>
> >>> -Michelle W5NYV
> >>>
> >>> On Sun, Jul 12, 2020, 19:11 Kevin via AMSAT-BB <amsat-bb@?????.???>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> > Hello All,
> >>> >
> >>> > In a previous email to the BB I posted the link to the letter we
> all
> >>> > received as members.
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>>
>
https://www.amsat.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/20200710_AMSAT_Lead
ership_Explains_Legal_Expenses.pdf
> >>> >
> >>> > I was re-reading it and something caught my eye that I had missed
> >>> before.
> >>> >
> >>> > "AMSAT did not provide a copy of its membership mailing addresses to
> >>> > Open Research Institute."
> >>> >
> >>> > Just how was our mailing list compromised? This seems like a
> >>> serious
> >>> > breech of security, was this a hack? was any other information lost?
> >>> > was it ever found out how it happened? is our mailing list as they
> say
> >>> > "out in the wind"?
> >>> >
> >>> > Michelle could you possibly check from the ORI side and backtrack how
> >>> > ORI came into possession of the AMSAT mailing list, was it something
> >>> > that was procured online?
> >>> >
> >>> > AMSAT needs to follow up on this privacy issue and report back what
> it
> >>> > found and any steps that were taken to prevent this from happening in
> >>> > the future.
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> > I look forward to an answer
> >>> >
> >>> > 73 Kevin WA7FWF #19623
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> > _______________________________________________
> >>> > Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum
> available
> >>> > to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
> >>> Opinions
> >>> > expressed
> >>> > are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views
> >>> of
> >>> > AMSAT-NA.
> >>> > Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
> >>> program!
> >>> > Subscription settings:
> https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
> >>> >
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
> >>> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
> >>> Opinions expressed
> >>> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views
> of
> >>> AMSAT-NA.
> >>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
> >>> program!
> >>> Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
> >>>
> >>
> _______________________________________________
> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions
> expressed
> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
> AMSAT-NA.
> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
> Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>
--
Bruce Perens - CEO at stealth startup. I'll tell you what it is eventually
:-)
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 03:04:44 +0700
From: Kenneth P Alexander <ve3hls@?????.???>
To: Steve Kristoff <skristof@???????.???>
Cc: AMSAT -BB <amsat-bb@?????.???>
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] AMSAT Member Mailing list
Message-ID:
<CAPOM0d=Pt9kPtHNmgxtfZdM4q2JxxqkbMFNM1pAxdj1cZFLFog@????.?????.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
It's not that simple Brian. If you follow that line of thinking then
people by the thousands would be renouncing their American citizenship
because of the current shitshow in Washington, but I haven't heard of that
happening.
The best thing to do is stay in the game, sort through the hysteria and
misinformation and exercise your right to vote when the time comes. Then
you can move Amsat back to becoming an organization you'll want to remain a
part of.
Ok, back to sleep for me!
73,
Ken Alexander, VE3HLS
So Phisai, Thailand
Blog: bueng-ken.com
On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 2:52 AM Steve Kristoff via AMSAT-BB <
amsat-bb@?????.???> wrote:
>
> I worked a satellite just this morning. They are still up there. Just have
> to step away from the computer and turn on the radio.
>
> Steve Ai9IN
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Brian Karcher via AMSAT-BB (amsat-bb@?????.????
> Date: 07/13/20 12:10
> To: amsat-bb@?????.???? amsat-bb-request@?????.???
> Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] AMSAT Member Mailing list
>
> I thought being a member of AMSAT was about keeping amateur radio in
> space, learning about satellites and for some of us working amateur radio
> satellites in space. Since the last election AMSAT seems to be about
> nothing but politics and misinformation. In my opinion AMSAT was a lot
> more fun to be apart of before the last election. All the politics and
> misinformation drives people away from AMSAT and is not good for the
> organization. I have been told in the past by one of the new board members
> that all of this is necessary for change to happen. I don't see that AMSAT
> has to go through some fundamental change or movement. I am tired of the
> new AMSAT since the last election. I am seriously considering not renewing
> my membership and I know plenty of other that are considering the same.
> When will all of this end so we can start enjoying AMSAT again and working
> satellites?
>
> Brian D. Karcher
> KG5GJT
>
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions
> expressed
> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
> AMSAT-NA.
> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
> Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 15:23:41 -0500
From: David Swanson <dave@?????????????.???>
To: Bruce Perens <bruce@??????.???>
Cc: AMSAT BB <amsat-bb@?????.???>
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] AMSAT Member Mailing list
Message-ID:
<CANq+eyV985yF4XZAmiZ0oifyutc+nGosE8RgpC0rZjtuC8h6SA@????.?????.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
By your own words, it was YOUR letter, in a letter YOU sent. No matter how
many times you try and repeat the same line now - you've already proven
yourself to be a fraud.
And by the way, people often violate the rules for stupid and unnecassary
reasons. It's very rarely the big lie you get caught in, it's all the
smaller ones you use to cover the big one up.
-Dave, KG5CCI
>
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 13:29:50 -0700
From: Fernando Ramirez <framirezferrer@?????.???>
To: Daniel Velez <djvnet@?????.???>
Cc: AMSAT -BB <amsat-bb@?????.???>
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] when is the election being discussed?
Message-ID:
<CAGHXx8jLoX5ADt7jDHfkh-OOBnH3zWFukA8oAHT-0R3Fq9O3Fw@????.?????.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
If you joined our renewed before July 1st, you will be getting a ballot
after July 15.
Saludos
Fernando, KF7R
On Mon, Jul 13, 2020, 1:26 PM Daniel Velez via AMSAT-BB <amsat-bb@?????.???>
wrote:
> I joined in June but I haven't seen any ballot info.
> 73 de Dan
> _______________________________________________
> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions
> expressed
> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
> AMSAT-NA.
> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
> Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 16:33:45 -0400
From: Arthur Feller <afeller@????.???>
To: Michelle Thompson <mountain.michelle@?????.???>
Cc: AMSAT BB <amsat-bb@?????.???>
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] AMSAT-NA, another perspective
Message-ID: <98C0DFD9-D12C-454B-BC39-30133A8CA3FD@????.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
AMSAT Members:
We?re going around in circles, getting nowhere fast. No resolution in
sight; only repetition, irritation, and turning away new and renewing
members. Not constructive.
Much as these subjects need to be and should be discussed, may I suggest
taking this thread offline?
I?m willing to facilitate an offline discussion.
73, art?..
W4ART Arlington VA
LM-113
To thrive in life, you need three bones: a wish bone, a back bone, and a
funny bone.
- Reba McEntire
http://afeller.us <http://afeller.us/>
------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 20:35:14 +0000 (UTC)
From: GEO Badger <w3ab@?????.???>
To: AMSAT BB <amsat-bb@?????.???>
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] AMSAT-NA, another perspective
Message-ID: <865720374.1065652.1594672514170@????.?????.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
I believe that all 501(c)(3) orgs must hold at least one BOD meeting per
year or it is in violation of the incorporation rules and the org will risk
losing their tax exempt status.
3 Annual Requirements Every Nonprofit Should Know
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3 Annual Requirements Every Nonprofit Should Know
Congratulations, you?ve received 501(c)(3) status, so now what!? PAPERWORK
AND MEETINGS! And also working for th...
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---??
Ciao baby, catch you on the flip side??
73 de W3AB/GEO ????
http://www.w3ab.org
You can say "over", you can say "out", you just can't say "over and out".
------------------------------
Message: 10
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 13:13:20 -0700
From: Bruce Perens <bruce@??????.???>
To: David Swanson <dave@?????????????.???>
Cc: AMSAT BB <amsat-bb@?????.???>
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] AMSAT Member Mailing list
Message-ID:
<CAK2MWOvcy8V-UUYKEi9QYKuB5p=Bd-rVVg1KH5DReZ91rwCHcA@????.?????.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
OK, Dave, you were not born yesterday :-) As I have said, I never touched
the mailing list, and never had to. I contributed $500 for postage, the
rest was provided by the candidates. But if I *had* touched the mailing
list, what nefarious things would I have done with it? You are mostly all
listed on QRZ, etc. Am I the guy sending you those mails about how Ed
McMahon will hand you the million-dollar check from Publishers Clearing
House?
What I am getting at here is that people don't violate rules for really
stupid and unnecessary reasons. There was a simple way to send the letter
within the rules, and we did it.
Thanks
Bruce
On Mon, Jul 13, 2020, 12:55 PM David Swanson <dave@?????????????.???> wrote:
> My apologies on the Twitter claim - when I tried loading it from source
> nothing was displaying pre January 28th, 2020 - the day of your 'I am
> signing off of social networking' declaration. (How'd that go btw?) I only
> assumed you had deleted your tweets.
>
> As to your never ending story changing about the mailing list, I was born
> at night, but it wasn't last night. Go try your story on another mark.
>
> -Dave, KG5CCI
>
> On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 2:45 PM Bruce Perens <bruce@??????.???> wrote:
>
>> David,
>>
>> My tweet was NOT deleted, and is still on twitter at
>> https://twitter.com/BrucePerens/status/1154844208458416128
>> As stated repeatedly, both by myself and Michelle, I did not handle the
>> mailing list, she did. Which was 100% her right as a candidate.
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Bruce
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 11:26 AM David Swanson via AMSAT-BB <
>> amsat-bb@?????.???> wrote:
>>
>>> It's always fun to remind folks tripping over their own feat lying that
>>> the
>>> internet is forever. From a Bruce Perens Tweet on July 13, 2020:
>>>
>>> "Please see my letter on the web, or the paper copy I've mailed to
>>> everyone
>>> one of you".
>>>
>>> Of course the original tweet was deleted, but the wayback machine never
>>> forgets. Don't Believe me? http://druidnetworks.com/2020-07-13.png
>>>
>>> If you still think the membership list wasn't compromised, I just heard
>>> Director Thompson will be auctioning off their ocean front property in
>>> Arizona to all the members this year to raise funds for their microwave,
>>> digital only, strictly open source crowd funded, vegan, social justice
>>> aware cubesat launch to Proxima Centauri. Of course this launch will only
>>> come after 10 years of ground station development, but fueled with enough
>>> hopes, dreams and promises it will become a reality!
>>>
>>> For the rest of us who actually want to keep amateur radio in (real)
>>> space
>>> and are disgusted at the violations of privacy that occured by 3rd
>>> parties
>>> working to get Director Thompson and Director Stoddard elected, well, you
>>> should know what to do.
>>>
>>> -Dave, KG5CCI
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 9:24 AM Michelle Thompson <
>>> mountain.michelle@?????.???> wrote:
>>>
>>> > No database went anywhere except to candidates. This is allowed in the
>>> > bylaws.
>>> >
>>> > Then, an automated bulk mail printing server was used. I recommended
>>> the
>>> > company to Brennan Price for this year's mailing. Good service,
>>> > inexpensive.
>>> >
>>> > Return addresses don't magically transfer information.
>>> >
>>> > -Michelle W5NYV
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On Mon, Jul 13, 2020, 04:32 David Swanson <dave@?????????????.???>
>>> wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> Spin Spin Spin. The simple truth here is Director Thompson took the
>>> AMSAT
>>> >> member database, and handed it over to a 3rd party competing entity
>>> for the
>>> >> purpose of solicitation. I know I did not give ORI my home address,
>>> yet ORI
>>> >> sent me a letter. This was a violation of my privacy, and for AMSAT
>>> >> members living in the EU, this was a violation of the law. Any
>>> attempt to
>>> >> explain this away is just more lies and deceit from Director Thompson
>>> about
>>> >> the shady practices they have engaged in over the past few years. As
>>> I keep
>>> >> saying, this isn't a one time thing, this is a pattern of
>>> >> reprehensible behavior that is unbecoming of an elected position and
>>> this
>>> >> community. Director Thompson and Director Stoddard should resign.
>>> >>
>>> >> -Dave, KG5CCI
>>> >>
>>> >> On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 5:33 AM Michelle Thompson via AMSAT-BB <
>>> >> amsat-bb@?????.???> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >>> Yes, I can.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> That part of Clayton's letter is wrong and has been repeatedly
>>> clarified
>>> >>> before. Including at the 2019 annual board meeting, where Tom Clark
>>> asked
>>> >>> me about it, as part of the record.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Clayton Coleman was secretary in 2019.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> He ran the election.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> He decided that candidate statements were limited in length to 350
>>> words,
>>> >>> would be subject to editorial control by AMSAT, and could not include
>>> >>> links. These new rules were given to us right before the 4th of July
>>> >>> holiday with a deadline of the 7th.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> This is different than any election before, where statements went
>>> >>> directly
>>> >>> to the printer from the candidate, were not limited in length, and
>>> no one
>>> >>> from AMSAT leadership (who might be running for reelection
>>> themselves)
>>> >>> had
>>> >>> any control over the content of their challengers' statements.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> We got these rules right before ballots went out. We (four
>>> challengers)
>>> >>> already had normal-sized statements on the web and they had been up
>>> six
>>> >>> weeks at that point. Those were the ones we wanted to use, and link
>>> to.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> We knew that as candidates, we had the right to request the mailing
>>> list,
>>> >>> and send our own statements, independent of the ballot.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> I requested the address list and got the DBASE4 export.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Bruce Perens had already written a letter of support and distributed
>>> it
>>> >>> widely on the web. It introduced us and included our four full bios
>>> and
>>> >>> statements.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> I asked Bruce if we could use his letter in the mailing. He said yes.
>>> >>> Since
>>> >>> he was President of Open Research Institute at the time, he wanted
>>> the
>>> >>> return address to not be his private home address, but a business
>>> >>> address.
>>> >>> That was ORI's address. He was the author of the endorsement, so I
>>> used
>>> >>> his
>>> >>> preferred return address.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> I converted the DBASE4 to a more useful format, fixed the 50 or so
>>> >>> undeliverable addresses, and found an inexpensive printer. Then I
>>> sent
>>> >>> the
>>> >>> letter from Bruce to the printer, with the bios and statements.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> That turned out to be a good thing. Bios and statements were not
>>> included
>>> >>> with the ballots mailed out, at all.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> If we had not sent the letter, then name recognition would be the
>>> primary
>>> >>> factor. We were running against well-known people.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> We complained about this. It was unusual departure from the past and
>>> >>> seemed
>>> >>> set up to let leadership benefit from being incumbents.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> The original proposal from Clayton was for an electronic only ballot.
>>> >>> Patrick said that the bylaws were a bit clunky here and it did need
>>> to be
>>> >>> mailed out on paper. Paper was required.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> This is a big reason why I made a motion at our one board meeting,
>>> in
>>> >>> March, for a bylaws committee.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> This bylaw isn't hard to fix. There's lots of examples out there of
>>> >>> organizations doing electronic voting with working published bylaws.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Bruce made it very clear, when the incumbents stirred up the pot
>>> about
>>> >>> the
>>> >>> return address, that it was an endorsement from him, this was
>>> commonly
>>> >>> done
>>> >>> in political campaigns, and it would be grossly improper for me to
>>> use
>>> >>> AMSATs return address because that would make it look like Bruce was
>>> >>> speaking for or was from AMSAT. That was not going to happen. *That*
>>> >>> would
>>> >>> be improper.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> No one candidate wanted their personal address used as a return
>>> address.
>>> >>> We
>>> >>> were mailing this as a slate and splitting the cost. We didn't have
>>> time
>>> >>> or
>>> >>> funds to make an organization or rent a box for one letter on short
>>> >>> notice.
>>> >>> The printer required a real return address.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> No one had the address list except the candidates. Namely me because
>>> I
>>> >>> contracted the printer and handled the DBASE4 address conversion.
>>> That
>>> >>> is a
>>> >>> neat story in and of itself,, for another time.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Bruce only sent the text to me and chipped in some money for postage.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> The printing was automated in Van Nuys, CA.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> All of this is known to Clayton Coleman and his friends on the board
>>> that
>>> >>> signed the statement from this week. It has been explained by Bruce
>>> >>> publicly, and by me several times on social media. Tom Clark brought
>>> it
>>> >>> up
>>> >>> at the 2019 annual board meeting because of the return address
>>> >>> pot-stirring. I explained it there too. Like I said, it's on the
>>> record.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> I think insinuating the addresses were mishandled is a deliberate
>>> >>> twisting
>>> >>> of honest efforts to scramble to get uncensored candidate statements
>>> out
>>> >>> to
>>> >>> voters on short notice. We just didn't have a lot of time, and Bruce
>>> was
>>> >>> very generous in writing a cover letter.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Again, candidates are allowed the use of the mailing lists for
>>> election
>>> >>> purposes.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> So, no, there was no breach. Clayton knows all this.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Saying it the way he did is a cheap shot at me, Patrick, Bruce
>>> Perens,
>>> >>> and
>>> >>> ORI.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> -Michelle W5NYV
>>> >>>
>>> >>> On Sun, Jul 12, 2020, 19:11 Kevin via AMSAT-BB <amsat-bb@?????.???>
>>> >>> wrote:
>>> >>>
>>> >>> > Hello All,
>>> >>> >
>>> >>> > In a previous email to the BB I posted the link to the letter
>>> we all
>>> >>> > received as members.
>>> >>> >
>>> >>> >
>>> >>> >
>>> >>>
>>>
https://www.amsat.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/20200710_AMSAT_Lead
ership_Explains_Legal_Expenses.pdf
>>> >>> >
>>> >>> > I was re-reading it and something caught my eye that I had missed
>>> >>> before.
>>> >>> >
>>> >>> > "AMSAT did not provide a copy of its membership mailing addresses
>>> to
>>> >>> > Open Research Institute."
>>> >>> >
>>> >>> > Just how was our mailing list compromised? This seems like a
>>> >>> serious
>>> >>> > breech of security, was this a hack? was any other information
>>> lost?
>>> >>> > was it ever found out how it happened? is our mailing list as they
>>> say
>>> >>> > "out in the wind"?
>>> >>> >
>>> >>> > Michelle could you possibly check from the ORI side and backtrack
>>> how
>>> >>> > ORI came into possession of the AMSAT mailing list, was it
>>> something
>>> >>> > that was procured online?
>>> >>> >
>>> >>> > AMSAT needs to follow up on this privacy issue and report back
>>> what it
>>> >>> > found and any steps that were taken to prevent this from happening
>>> in
>>> >>> > the future.
>>> >>> >
>>> >>> >
>>> >>> > I look forward to an answer
>>> >>> >
>>> >>> > 73 Kevin WA7FWF #19623
>>> >>> >
>>> >>> >
>>> >>> >
>>> >>> >
>>> >>> >
>>> >>> >
>>> >>> > _______________________________________________
>>> >>> > Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum
>>> available
>>> >>> > to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
>>> >>> Opinions
>>> >>> > expressed
>>> >>> > are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official
>>> views
>>> >>> of
>>> >>> > AMSAT-NA.
>>> >>> > Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
>>> >>> program!
>>> >>> > Subscription settings:
>>> https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>>> >>> >
>>> >>> _______________________________________________
>>> >>> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum
>>> available
>>> >>> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
>>> >>> Opinions expressed
>>> >>> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official
>>> views of
>>> >>> AMSAT-NA.
>>> >>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
>>> >>> program!
>>> >>> Subscription settings:
>>> https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>>> >>>
>>> >>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
>>> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
>>> Opinions expressed
>>> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
>>> AMSAT-NA.
>>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
>>> program!
>>> Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Bruce Perens - CEO at stealth startup. I'll tell you what it is
>> eventually :-)
>>
>
------------------------------
Subject: Digest Footer
_______________________________________________
Sent via amsat-bb@?????.???.
AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide
without requiring membership. Opinions expressed
are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
AMSAT-NA.
Not an AMSAT member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
------------------------------
End of AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol 15, Issue 247
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