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CX2SA > SATDIG 14.07.20 02:55l 1174 Lines 43000 Bytes #999 (0) @ WW
BID : AMSATBB15248
Read: GUEST
Subj: AMSAT-BB-digest V15 248
Path: IW8PGT<IZ3LSV<DB0ERF<DB0RES<ON0AR<OZ5BBS<CX2SA
Sent: 200714/0051Z @:CX2SA.SAL.URY.SOAM #:34911 [Salto] FBB7.00e $:AMSATBB15248
From: CX2SA@CX2SA.SAL.URY.SOAM
To : SATDIG@WW
Today's Topics:
1. Re: AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol 15, Issue 242 (Mike Wilhelm)
2. Re: AMSAT-NA, another perspective (Fernando Ramirez)
3. Re: Gravitas (Kevin)
4. Re: AMSAT Member Mailing list (Bob Liddy (K8BL))
5. Re: children (John Brier)
6. Re: AMSAT Member Mailing list (Kevin)
7. Re: Still one part missing.... (skip if you don't want to
read about the BoD concerns) (Patrick STODDARD (WD9EWK/VA7EWK))
8. Re: Mr David Swanson..... (Stefan Wagener)
9. Re: Mr David Swanson..... (David Swanson)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 15:42:45 -0500
From: Mike Wilhelm <af5at.radio@?????.???>
To: Daniel Schultz <n8fgv@???.???>
Cc: Amsat - BBs <amsat-bb@?????.???>
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol 15, Issue 242
Message-ID:
<CABQUVrUbUPsQHHj2kASDr=k93Rm9efTkw4z8+jgs=w9opp97oQ@????.?????.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
I joined this BB to learn more about satellites. I have learned that if a
person makes a mistake, everyone piles on him and complains. I have never
attempted to get on a bird for that reason.
Mike AF5AT
On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 3:15 PM Daniel Schultz via AMSAT-BB <
amsat-bb@?????.???> wrote:
> Dear Gailen,
>
> In filing your two line gripe about the "structural squabbling" displacing
> the
> normal discussion of the "birds" on amsat-bb, you forwarded all 913 lines
> of
> the entire AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol 15, Issue 242, back to the group. If you
> are
> going to complain about the signal to noise ratio, at least take the time
> to
> edit your reply before hitting send. If you can't do that from your iPhone,
> then wait until you get home and send your reply from a real computer.
>
> No we are not going to create yet another mailing list. If you don't like
> it
> then hit Delete and go on to the next message about the "birds".
>
> Dan Schultz N8FGV
>
> ------ Original Message ------
> >Received: Sun, 12 Jul 2020 15:50:47 -0500
> >From: Gailen Marshall <gdm2md@?????.???>
> >To: amsat-bb@?????.???
> >Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol 15, Issue 233
> >Message-ID: <92CBBC69-47D9-46E3-A39C-4B8DBD8482F5@?????.???>
> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
> >
> >Yes! Can we stick to the birds and let those interested in structural
> squabbling
> >have their own venue? Gailen N5GDM
> >
> >Sent from my iPhone
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions
> expressed
> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
> AMSAT-NA.
> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
> Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 13:44:37 -0700
From: Fernando Ramirez <framirezferrer@?????.???>
To: Michelle Thompson <mountain.michelle@?????.???>
Cc: Russ Ramirez <russ.ramirez@?????.???>, AMSAT BB
<amsat-bb@?????.???>
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] AMSAT-NA, another perspective
Message-ID:
<CAGHXx8jSc163RrzKd7vCdu0Q4Co-P9ifB=428u-fuRbxECV8aw@????.?????.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
I wonder why Joe Spier didn't sign AMSAT's statement as a Past President
and the one who authorized some of those legal expenses...
Fernando Ram?rez
KF7R
On Mon, Jul 13, 2020, 1:31 PM Michelle Thompson via AMSAT-BB <
amsat-bb@?????.???> wrote:
> We were denied access to corporate records and communications from the
> first day of our terms.
>
> We commissioned a formal legal demand letter and sent it to
> AMSAT's secretly hired law firm.
>
> Two days later, Joe Spier resigned.
>
> Clayton Coleman was (duly) elected in a short emergency meeting.
>
> Clayton Coleman restored access to communications, and some additional
> records were available. He called the first (and only) regular board
> meeting of the year, and we heard some reports, made some motions, and
> kicked off some plans. This was nearly 5 months into our term.
>
> The biggest step forward at this meeting was Clayton agreed to end the
> business relationship with the secretly hired law firm. That spigot was
> off.
>
> Things actually looked like they were improving.
>
> No followup since then. No regular meetings since then. No resolution on
> who actually signed the checks. Could we recover the money?
>
> When the rest of the board finally angrily revealed they really did know
> all about the secretly hired law firm all along, and it was ok with them
> that the lawyers were used specifically to make our lives harder, and when
> some of them decided to run for another term, we decided to speak up.
> That's all we can do.
>
> If members want another year of zero board meetings because the incumbents
> really hate Patrick and Michelle asking inconvenient questions about
> unauthorized expenses, then members will return the same people to the
> board.
>
> Every month, Patrick and I will still be going through the financials
> carefully and asking questions. That's an essential part of the job.
>
> If members want a functional board that publishes minutes and can show
> progress, collaboration, and decision-making, then please vote for people
> that will help do that: Robert McGwier, Howie DeFelice, and Jeff Johns.
>
> Thank you for the opportunity to answer.
>
> -Michelle W5NYV
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 10:06 AM Russ Ramirez via AMSAT-BB <
> amsat-bb@?????.???> wrote:
>
> > I have been a member on/off since 2012. I have never been removed from
> this
> > AMSAT mailing list, but have not always been able to log into the
> AMSAT.org
> > web site. In spite of this, I have renewed my membership, typically at
> > Hamvention (until this year, but did so online), and made extra purchases
> > to support the work of AMSAT.
> >
> > I definitely echo the message of Hans BX2ABT. Not everyone is bad, but
> > unfortunately too many are not good either.
> >
> > When reading over each point of view of this ongoing dispute, it is not
> > very clear what started this dispute. In a statement in response to
> > allegations of financial mismanagement, Clayton wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > *AMSAT's corporate records give a full accounting of all expendituresand
> > are provided to its Directors upon request, in compliance with
> ourgoverning
> > documents and law of the District of Columbia (D.C.) Ouroffice remains
> > closed due to COVID-19, where those documents reside.Furthermore, AMSAT
> > complies with IRS rules for 501(c)(3) disclosure ofpublic financial
> > documents, such as the Form 990 available on theAMSAT website *
> >
> > The above statement is either wholly true, or gray, because making a
> > statement like this which is completely false would be illegal.
> >
> > Michelle, you have claimed that you (and Patrick) were denied access to
> > financial transaction records upon your written request. Can we simply
> > focus on *what* specifically started this whole thing?
> >
> > Russ Ramirez
> > K0WFS
> > _______________________________________________
> > Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
> > to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
> Opinions
> > expressed
> > are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
> > AMSAT-NA.
> > Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
> program!
> > Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions
> expressed
> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
> AMSAT-NA.
> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
> Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 13:48:50 -0700
From: Kevin <wa7fwf@?????.???>
To: amsat-bb@?????.???
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Gravitas
Message-ID: <966500ed-3dca-da30-4cfa-f520aefdf8fb@?????.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Might want to try again, works fine here right now.
https://launch.amsat.org/Join
Kevin wa7fwf 19623
On 7/13/2020 8:17 AM, Robert Ehresman via AMSAT-BB wrote:
> I'd like to point out that the "Join AMSAT" page is currently giving out
> Error 404.
>
> PAGE NOT FOUND (ERROR 404)
> Sorry, but the page you are trying to access either does not exist or is
> not available.
>
>
> Home <https://launch.amsat.org/> Back Sitemap
> <https://launch.amsat.org/Sitemap>
>
>> I invite you to turn your angst, whatever it >might be, into action by
> joining AMSAT >and have a vote in the matter. Otherwise, >you?re just
> ranting with into the wind for >no reason other than to hear your own
>> voice?
>> https://www.amsat.org/join-amsat/
>> <https://www.amsat.org/join-amsat/>
> _______________________________________________
> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions
expressed
> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
AMSAT-NA.
> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
> Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 20:50:40 +0000 (UTC)
From: "Bob Liddy (K8BL)" <k8bl@?????????.???>
To: amsat-bb@?????.???
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] AMSAT Member Mailing list
Message-ID: <441122474.1064586.1594673440635@????.?????.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
AMSAT Membership,
OK....? I'm saturated!!!
AMSAT-BB is going to SPAM from this point on. My Mailbox has become?filled
with non-stop posts about whatever this nightmare actually is and
whatcountless people are opining about it. I can't take any more and several
folksthat are long-time Members have told me the same. At this point, I
don't carehow it ends as long as it ends. I'll check back in a couple weeks.
73 & CUL,? ? Bob? K8BL? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?(AMSAT #6593, Since 1979)
_______________________________________________
Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions
expressed
are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
AMSAT-NA.
Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 17:08:07 -0400
From: John Brier <johnbrier@?????.???>
To: 73 Bob W7LRD <w7lrd@???????.???>
Cc: amsat-bb <amsat-bb@?????.???>
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] children
Message-ID:
<CALn0fKPpLD9kQQejxCy5mmGNJS+4VsFB98waya7T1fC_LyJJvg@????.?????.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Your message already went through. Do you know if you send a message
to the list it is not reflected back to you? To verify it was sent,
just check the archives:
full archive index:
https://www.amsat.org/pipermail/amsat-bb/
July:
https://www.amsat.org/pipermail/amsat-bb/2020-July/thread.html
Your original message:
https://www.amsat.org/pipermail/amsat-bb/2020-July/078402.html
your repeated message:
https://www.amsat.org/pipermail/amsat-bb/2020-July/078410.html
73, John Brier KG4AKV
On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 5:04 PM 73 Bob W7LRD via AMSAT-BB
<amsat-bb@?????.???> wrote:
>
>
> When my children were very young they would very occasionally get into
fights and conflicts. I would put them both into a small room in the house
and tell them, "you're not coming out until you can get along.
> > 73 Bob W7LRD
> _______________________________________________
> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions
expressed
> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
AMSAT-NA.
> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
> Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 14:21:36 -0700
From: Kevin <wa7fwf@?????.???>
Cc: BOD@?????.???? AMSAT BB <amsat-bb@?????.???>
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] AMSAT Member Mailing list
Message-ID: <791b7398-6eb2-2715-d8d5-13b478a63026@?????.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
OK,? one of these two statements is a lie, which one is it?
> On 7/12/2020 9:48 PM, Bruce Perens wrote:
>> Kevin,
>>
>> No, I never saw the mailing list .*I didn't do the mailing* . I only
>> wrote the content .
>>
>>
>>
>> Bruce K6BP
>>
>>
"Please see my letter on the web, or the paper copy*I've mailed* to everyone
one of you".
http://druidnetworks.com/2020-07-13.png
?And I agree this is getting old and needs to be pulled off here and?
moved over to AMSAT to get to the bottom of this and take action.
Kevin WA7FWF 19623
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 21:30:48 +0000
From: "Patrick STODDARD (WD9EWK/VA7EWK)" <amsat-bb@??????.???>
To: Roy Dean <royldean@?????.???>, AMSAT <amsat-bb@?????.???>
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Still one part missing.... (skip if you don't
want to read about the BoD concerns)
Message-ID:
<CAN6TEUeTq7eP8pTDim-pxD4t6zC2jLAWQhsV3CeAxCJa-mKwOQ@????.?????.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Roy,
You are correct about my lack of a connection with Open Research
Institute. I have nothing to do with ORI. My full candidate's
statement for last year's Board of Directors election was included in
the mailing Michelle prepared. I helped cover the costs of that
mailing, which was done in full compliance with the AMSAT bylaws.
Michelle and I were initially told by Joe Spier in late September 2019
we needed to sign a non-disclosure agreement before we could gain
access to AMSAT records like the archives of the Board's private
mailing list. Then it became something different... we had to sign an
acknowledgement for the NDAs AMSAT had with different organizations. We
were not provided copies of these NDAs initially, but told we would
have to sign an acknowledgement of those NDAs during the Board meeting
at last year's Symposium. This acknowledgement had nothing to do with
accessing AMSAT records or the mailing list archives. Michelle and I
wanted to see these NDAs before the meeting, so we could have adequate
time to review them. We received copies of the AMSAT NDAs. Michelle and
I, along with the rest of the Board and the senior officers, signed an
acknowledgement of those NDAs during the Board meeting.
After the Symposium, things changed again. In a phone call with Joe
Spier and a lawyer from Hurwit & Associates, both Joe and the lawyer
were discussing a proposed "conflict of interest" policy that would
prevent Michelle and me from ever seeing any AMSAT records related to
anything before we joined the Board. I previously wrote about here on
the -BB and on my http://amsat.wd9ewk.net/ web page. When this was
brought to the attention of the rest of the Board and senior officers,
nobody spoke up. After seeing Clayton's letter, it is crystal clear
why that was.
It took Michelle and me seeking our own legal advice, followed by the
demand letter sent to AMSAT in late January, to end the roadblock that
started on day 1 of our terms as directors. After Joe Spier's quick
resignation, Clayton and AMSAT's lawyer both said we would have access
to records - almost 5 months after our terms started. Five months where
AMSAT was not in compliance with District of Columbia corporate law.
Michelle and I welcome an opportunity to discuss a wide range of issues
concerning AMSAT with the rest of the Board of Directors in a meeting.
As of now, it appears to me that neither the other directors nor
Clayton are willing to join us in calling for a Board meeting.
Seeing what we went through last fall with those NDAs, I would expect
that any new directors or senior officers should be provided copies of
AMSAT's NDAs, along with an acknowledgement form like we signed last
year. This should be part of the process of welcoming new directors or
senior officers. There was no process I could see when Michelle and I
joined the Board last year, even though there is a brief mention of a
process in the AMSAT bylaws for outgoing and incoming directors. I saw
much more organization when I joined the Board as an alternate back in
2011.
73.
Patrick Stoddard, WD9EWK/VA7EWK
http://www.wd9ewk.net/
Twitter: @?????? or http://twitter.com/WD9EWK
On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 8:54 PM Roy Dean via AMSAT-BB <amsat-bb@?????.???>
wrote:
> [Legal Disclaimer: None of the below should be construed as fact. I am
> only trying to confirm what I know in order to make an informed decision
> when it comes time to vote. Please feel free to correct any assumptions or
> conclusions I may have reached below]
>
> I understand both of Directors Stoddard's and Thompson's concerns about the
> validity of certain spending on legal advice.
> I understand both of Directors Stoddard's and Thompson's concerns about the
> withholding of corporate documents until a legal demand letter was
> presented.
> I understand the concerns of many of the board and executives about a
> conflict of interest with Director Thomson's involvement with ORI.
> I understand the concerns of many of the board and executives regarding
> harassment policies.
> I understand the concerns of some of the members about the potential misuse
> of the membership mailing list by an alleged "agent" of Director Thompson
> (and/or ORI), as well as understanding the reasoning Director Thompson put
> forward for the ORI return address on mailing in question.
>
> One thing I do not understand is why any of this does (or did) affect
> Director Stoddard? Why was corporate documentation withheld from him?
> From what I can tell, he has no relation to ORI. Is it because his
> candidate statement was included with the ORI mailing (I don't even know if
> it was, I cannot remember and didn't save my mailing)? Was it because he
> hesitated (or refused) to sign the new NDA? Or did he sign the new NDA?
> Were all other BoD members asked to sign the NDA prior to being given
> access to the corporate documents that were alleged to be withheld from
> Dirs. Stoddard and Thompson? Is that NDA now SOP for all new Directors
> and Executives?
>
> <snip> <https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb>
>
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 16:32:57 -0500
From: Stefan Wagener <wageners@?????.???>
To: David Swanson <dave@?????????????.???>
Cc: AMSAT BB <amsat-bb@?????.???>
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Mr David Swanson.....
Message-ID:
<CAKu8kHBhENrBeyxpdkXm2RWiCzrx=ActnmTWXy_+FiG2iEzWsQ@????.?????.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Mr David Swanson,
Your vicious, sarcastic, and personal attacks against a duly elected board
member and more importantly another human being are totally uncalled
for and a total embarrassment to yourself.
STOP IT!
Stefan VE4SW
On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 2:28 PM David Swanson via AMSAT-BB <
amsat-bb@?????.???> wrote:
> It's always fun to remind folks tripping over their own feat lying that the
> internet is forever. From a Bruce Perens Tweet on July 13, 2020:
>
> "Please see my letter on the web, or the paper copy I've mailed to everyone
> one of you".
>
> Of course the original tweet was deleted, but the wayback machine never
> forgets. Don't Believe me? http://druidnetworks.com/2020-07-13.png
>
> If you still think the membership list wasn't compromised, I just heard
> Director Thompson will be auctioning off their ocean front property in
> Arizona to all the members this year to raise funds for their microwave,
> digital only, strictly open source crowd funded, vegan, social justice
> aware cubesat launch to Proxima Centauri. Of course this launch will only
> come after 10 years of ground station development, but fueled with enough
> hopes, dreams and promises it will become a reality!
>
> For the rest of us who actually want to keep amateur radio in (real) space
> and are disgusted at the violations of privacy that occured by 3rd parties
> working to get Director Thompson and Director Stoddard elected, well, you
> should know what to do.
>
> -Dave, KG5CCI
>
> On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 9:24 AM Michelle Thompson <
> mountain.michelle@?????.???> wrote:
>
> > No database went anywhere except to candidates. This is allowed in the
> > bylaws.
> >
> > Then, an automated bulk mail printing server was used. I recommended the
> > company to Brennan Price for this year's mailing. Good service,
> > inexpensive.
> >
> > Return addresses don't magically transfer information.
> >
> > -Michelle W5NYV
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Jul 13, 2020, 04:32 David Swanson <dave@?????????????.???>
> wrote:
> >
> >> Spin Spin Spin. The simple truth here is Director Thompson took the
> AMSAT
> >> member database, and handed it over to a 3rd party competing entity for
> the
> >> purpose of solicitation. I know I did not give ORI my home address, yet
> ORI
> >> sent me a letter. This was a violation of my privacy, and for AMSAT
> >> members living in the EU, this was a violation of the law. Any attempt
> to
> >> explain this away is just more lies and deceit from Director Thompson
> about
> >> the shady practices they have engaged in over the past few years. As I
> keep
> >> saying, this isn't a one time thing, this is a pattern of
> >> reprehensible behavior that is unbecoming of an elected position and
> this
> >> community. Director Thompson and Director Stoddard should resign.
> >>
> >> -Dave, KG5CCI
> >>
> >> On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 5:33 AM Michelle Thompson via AMSAT-BB <
> >> amsat-bb@?????.???> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Yes, I can.
> >>>
> >>> That part of Clayton's letter is wrong and has been repeatedly
> clarified
> >>> before. Including at the 2019 annual board meeting, where Tom Clark
> asked
> >>> me about it, as part of the record.
> >>>
> >>> Clayton Coleman was secretary in 2019.
> >>>
> >>> He ran the election.
> >>>
> >>> He decided that candidate statements were limited in length to 350
> words,
> >>> would be subject to editorial control by AMSAT, and could not include
> >>> links. These new rules were given to us right before the 4th of July
> >>> holiday with a deadline of the 7th.
> >>>
> >>> This is different than any election before, where statements went
> >>> directly
> >>> to the printer from the candidate, were not limited in length, and no
> one
> >>> from AMSAT leadership (who might be running for reelection themselves)
> >>> had
> >>> any control over the content of their challengers' statements.
> >>>
> >>> We got these rules right before ballots went out. We (four challengers)
> >>> already had normal-sized statements on the web and they had been up six
> >>> weeks at that point. Those were the ones we wanted to use, and link to.
> >>>
> >>> We knew that as candidates, we had the right to request the mailing
> list,
> >>> and send our own statements, independent of the ballot.
> >>>
> >>> I requested the address list and got the DBASE4 export.
> >>>
> >>> Bruce Perens had already written a letter of support and distributed it
> >>> widely on the web. It introduced us and included our four full bios and
> >>> statements.
> >>>
> >>> I asked Bruce if we could use his letter in the mailing. He said yes.
> >>> Since
> >>> he was President of Open Research Institute at the time, he wanted the
> >>> return address to not be his private home address, but a business
> >>> address.
> >>> That was ORI's address. He was the author of the endorsement, so I used
> >>> his
> >>> preferred return address.
> >>>
> >>> I converted the DBASE4 to a more useful format, fixed the 50 or so
> >>> undeliverable addresses, and found an inexpensive printer. Then I sent
> >>> the
> >>> letter from Bruce to the printer, with the bios and statements.
> >>>
> >>> That turned out to be a good thing. Bios and statements were not
> included
> >>> with the ballots mailed out, at all.
> >>>
> >>> If we had not sent the letter, then name recognition would be the
> primary
> >>> factor. We were running against well-known people.
> >>>
> >>> We complained about this. It was unusual departure from the past and
> >>> seemed
> >>> set up to let leadership benefit from being incumbents.
> >>>
> >>> The original proposal from Clayton was for an electronic only ballot.
> >>> Patrick said that the bylaws were a bit clunky here and it did need to
> be
> >>> mailed out on paper. Paper was required.
> >>>
> >>> This is a big reason why I made a motion at our one board meeting, in
> >>> March, for a bylaws committee.
> >>>
> >>> This bylaw isn't hard to fix. There's lots of examples out there of
> >>> organizations doing electronic voting with working published bylaws.
> >>>
> >>> Bruce made it very clear, when the incumbents stirred up the pot about
> >>> the
> >>> return address, that it was an endorsement from him, this was commonly
> >>> done
> >>> in political campaigns, and it would be grossly improper for me to use
> >>> AMSATs return address because that would make it look like Bruce was
> >>> speaking for or was from AMSAT. That was not going to happen. *That*
> >>> would
> >>> be improper.
> >>>
> >>> No one candidate wanted their personal address used as a return
> address.
> >>> We
> >>> were mailing this as a slate and splitting the cost. We didn't have
> time
> >>> or
> >>> funds to make an organization or rent a box for one letter on short
> >>> notice.
> >>> The printer required a real return address.
> >>>
> >>> No one had the address list except the candidates. Namely me because I
> >>> contracted the printer and handled the DBASE4 address conversion. That
> >>> is a
> >>> neat story in and of itself,, for another time.
> >>>
> >>> Bruce only sent the text to me and chipped in some money for postage.
> >>>
> >>> The printing was automated in Van Nuys, CA.
> >>>
> >>> All of this is known to Clayton Coleman and his friends on the board
> that
> >>> signed the statement from this week. It has been explained by Bruce
> >>> publicly, and by me several times on social media. Tom Clark brought it
> >>> up
> >>> at the 2019 annual board meeting because of the return address
> >>> pot-stirring. I explained it there too. Like I said, it's on the
> record.
> >>>
> >>> I think insinuating the addresses were mishandled is a deliberate
> >>> twisting
> >>> of honest efforts to scramble to get uncensored candidate statements
> out
> >>> to
> >>> voters on short notice. We just didn't have a lot of time, and Bruce
> was
> >>> very generous in writing a cover letter.
> >>>
> >>> Again, candidates are allowed the use of the mailing lists for election
> >>> purposes.
> >>>
> >>> So, no, there was no breach. Clayton knows all this.
> >>>
> >>> Saying it the way he did is a cheap shot at me, Patrick, Bruce Perens,
> >>> and
> >>> ORI.
> >>>
> >>> -Michelle W5NYV
> >>>
> >>> On Sun, Jul 12, 2020, 19:11 Kevin via AMSAT-BB <amsat-bb@?????.???>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> > Hello All,
> >>> >
> >>> > In a previous email to the BB I posted the link to the letter we
> all
> >>> > received as members.
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>>
>
https://www.amsat.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/20200710_AMSAT_Lead
ership_Explains_Legal_Expenses.pdf
> >>> >
> >>> > I was re-reading it and something caught my eye that I had missed
> >>> before.
> >>> >
> >>> > "AMSAT did not provide a copy of its membership mailing addresses to
> >>> > Open Research Institute."
> >>> >
> >>> > Just how was our mailing list compromised? This seems like a
> >>> serious
> >>> > breech of security, was this a hack? was any other information lost?
> >>> > was it ever found out how it happened? is our mailing list as they
> say
> >>> > "out in the wind"?
> >>> >
> >>> > Michelle could you possibly check from the ORI side and backtrack how
> >>> > ORI came into possession of the AMSAT mailing list, was it something
> >>> > that was procured online?
> >>> >
> >>> > AMSAT needs to follow up on this privacy issue and report back what
> it
> >>> > found and any steps that were taken to prevent this from happening in
> >>> > the future.
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> > I look forward to an answer
> >>> >
> >>> > 73 Kevin WA7FWF #19623
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> > _______________________________________________
> >>> > Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum
> available
> >>> > to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
> >>> Opinions
> >>> > expressed
> >>> > are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views
> >>> of
> >>> > AMSAT-NA.
> >>> > Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
> >>> program!
> >>> > Subscription settings:
> https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
> >>> >
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
> >>> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
> >>> Opinions expressed
> >>> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views
> of
> >>> AMSAT-NA.
> >>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
> >>> program!
> >>> Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
> >>>
> >>
> _______________________________________________
> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions
> expressed
> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
> AMSAT-NA.
> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
> Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>
------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 16:52:55 -0500
From: David Swanson <dave@?????????????.???>
To: Stefan Wagener <wageners@?????.???>
Cc: AMSAT BB <amsat-bb@?????.???>
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Mr David Swanson.....
Message-ID:
<CANq+eyXeiJ-rmrir70pHbuFVwfm=ycoOXLBK3tuu7Zz05a3URA@????.?????.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Mr Wagener,
People have threatened my friends and members of my community with legal
action, they defamed them, and impugned their integrity. They seek to
destroy a hobby I care a great deal about. The fact that you don't see
what's going on is the embarrassment, not the words I use.
In short, you can go to hell.
-Dave, KG5CCI
On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 4:33 PM Stefan Wagener <wageners@?????.???> wrote:
> Mr David Swanson,
>
> Your vicious, sarcastic, and personal attacks against a duly elected board
> member and more importantly another human being are totally uncalled
> for and a total embarrassment to yourself.
>
> STOP IT!
>
> Stefan VE4SW
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 2:28 PM David Swanson via AMSAT-BB <
> amsat-bb@?????.???> wrote:
>
>> It's always fun to remind folks tripping over their own feat lying that
>> the
>> internet is forever. From a Bruce Perens Tweet on July 13, 2020:
>>
>> "Please see my letter on the web, or the paper copy I've mailed to
>> everyone
>> one of you".
>>
>> Of course the original tweet was deleted, but the wayback machine never
>> forgets. Don't Believe me? http://druidnetworks.com/2020-07-13.png
>>
>> If you still think the membership list wasn't compromised, I just heard
>> Director Thompson will be auctioning off their ocean front property in
>> Arizona to all the members this year to raise funds for their microwave,
>> digital only, strictly open source crowd funded, vegan, social justice
>> aware cubesat launch to Proxima Centauri. Of course this launch will only
>> come after 10 years of ground station development, but fueled with enough
>> hopes, dreams and promises it will become a reality!
>>
>> For the rest of us who actually want to keep amateur radio in (real) space
>> and are disgusted at the violations of privacy that occured by 3rd parties
>> working to get Director Thompson and Director Stoddard elected, well, you
>> should know what to do.
>>
>> -Dave, KG5CCI
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 9:24 AM Michelle Thompson <
>> mountain.michelle@?????.???> wrote:
>>
>> > No database went anywhere except to candidates. This is allowed in the
>> > bylaws.
>> >
>> > Then, an automated bulk mail printing server was used. I recommended the
>> > company to Brennan Price for this year's mailing. Good service,
>> > inexpensive.
>> >
>> > Return addresses don't magically transfer information.
>> >
>> > -Michelle W5NYV
>> >
>> >
>> > On Mon, Jul 13, 2020, 04:32 David Swanson <dave@?????????????.???>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Spin Spin Spin. The simple truth here is Director Thompson took the
>> AMSAT
>> >> member database, and handed it over to a 3rd party competing entity
>> for the
>> >> purpose of solicitation. I know I did not give ORI my home address,
>> yet ORI
>> >> sent me a letter. This was a violation of my privacy, and for AMSAT
>> >> members living in the EU, this was a violation of the law. Any attempt
>> to
>> >> explain this away is just more lies and deceit from Director Thompson
>> about
>> >> the shady practices they have engaged in over the past few years. As I
>> keep
>> >> saying, this isn't a one time thing, this is a pattern of
>> >> reprehensible behavior that is unbecoming of an elected position and
>> this
>> >> community. Director Thompson and Director Stoddard should resign.
>> >>
>> >> -Dave, KG5CCI
>> >>
>> >> On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 5:33 AM Michelle Thompson via AMSAT-BB <
>> >> amsat-bb@?????.???> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> Yes, I can.
>> >>>
>> >>> That part of Clayton's letter is wrong and has been repeatedly
>> clarified
>> >>> before. Including at the 2019 annual board meeting, where Tom Clark
>> asked
>> >>> me about it, as part of the record.
>> >>>
>> >>> Clayton Coleman was secretary in 2019.
>> >>>
>> >>> He ran the election.
>> >>>
>> >>> He decided that candidate statements were limited in length to 350
>> words,
>> >>> would be subject to editorial control by AMSAT, and could not include
>> >>> links. These new rules were given to us right before the 4th of July
>> >>> holiday with a deadline of the 7th.
>> >>>
>> >>> This is different than any election before, where statements went
>> >>> directly
>> >>> to the printer from the candidate, were not limited in length, and no
>> one
>> >>> from AMSAT leadership (who might be running for reelection themselves)
>> >>> had
>> >>> any control over the content of their challengers' statements.
>> >>>
>> >>> We got these rules right before ballots went out. We (four
>> challengers)
>> >>> already had normal-sized statements on the web and they had been up
>> six
>> >>> weeks at that point. Those were the ones we wanted to use, and link
>> to.
>> >>>
>> >>> We knew that as candidates, we had the right to request the mailing
>> list,
>> >>> and send our own statements, independent of the ballot.
>> >>>
>> >>> I requested the address list and got the DBASE4 export.
>> >>>
>> >>> Bruce Perens had already written a letter of support and distributed
>> it
>> >>> widely on the web. It introduced us and included our four full bios
>> and
>> >>> statements.
>> >>>
>> >>> I asked Bruce if we could use his letter in the mailing. He said yes.
>> >>> Since
>> >>> he was President of Open Research Institute at the time, he wanted the
>> >>> return address to not be his private home address, but a business
>> >>> address.
>> >>> That was ORI's address. He was the author of the endorsement, so I
>> used
>> >>> his
>> >>> preferred return address.
>> >>>
>> >>> I converted the DBASE4 to a more useful format, fixed the 50 or so
>> >>> undeliverable addresses, and found an inexpensive printer. Then I sent
>> >>> the
>> >>> letter from Bruce to the printer, with the bios and statements.
>> >>>
>> >>> That turned out to be a good thing. Bios and statements were not
>> included
>> >>> with the ballots mailed out, at all.
>> >>>
>> >>> If we had not sent the letter, then name recognition would be the
>> primary
>> >>> factor. We were running against well-known people.
>> >>>
>> >>> We complained about this. It was unusual departure from the past and
>> >>> seemed
>> >>> set up to let leadership benefit from being incumbents.
>> >>>
>> >>> The original proposal from Clayton was for an electronic only ballot.
>> >>> Patrick said that the bylaws were a bit clunky here and it did need
>> to be
>> >>> mailed out on paper. Paper was required.
>> >>>
>> >>> This is a big reason why I made a motion at our one board meeting, in
>> >>> March, for a bylaws committee.
>> >>>
>> >>> This bylaw isn't hard to fix. There's lots of examples out there of
>> >>> organizations doing electronic voting with working published bylaws.
>> >>>
>> >>> Bruce made it very clear, when the incumbents stirred up the pot about
>> >>> the
>> >>> return address, that it was an endorsement from him, this was commonly
>> >>> done
>> >>> in political campaigns, and it would be grossly improper for me to use
>> >>> AMSATs return address because that would make it look like Bruce was
>> >>> speaking for or was from AMSAT. That was not going to happen. *That*
>> >>> would
>> >>> be improper.
>> >>>
>> >>> No one candidate wanted their personal address used as a return
>> address.
>> >>> We
>> >>> were mailing this as a slate and splitting the cost. We didn't have
>> time
>> >>> or
>> >>> funds to make an organization or rent a box for one letter on short
>> >>> notice.
>> >>> The printer required a real return address.
>> >>>
>> >>> No one had the address list except the candidates. Namely me because I
>> >>> contracted the printer and handled the DBASE4 address conversion. That
>> >>> is a
>> >>> neat story in and of itself,, for another time.
>> >>>
>> >>> Bruce only sent the text to me and chipped in some money for postage.
>> >>>
>> >>> The printing was automated in Van Nuys, CA.
>> >>>
>> >>> All of this is known to Clayton Coleman and his friends on the board
>> that
>> >>> signed the statement from this week. It has been explained by Bruce
>> >>> publicly, and by me several times on social media. Tom Clark brought
>> it
>> >>> up
>> >>> at the 2019 annual board meeting because of the return address
>> >>> pot-stirring. I explained it there too. Like I said, it's on the
>> record.
>> >>>
>> >>> I think insinuating the addresses were mishandled is a deliberate
>> >>> twisting
>> >>> of honest efforts to scramble to get uncensored candidate statements
>> out
>> >>> to
>> >>> voters on short notice. We just didn't have a lot of time, and Bruce
>> was
>> >>> very generous in writing a cover letter.
>> >>>
>> >>> Again, candidates are allowed the use of the mailing lists for
>> election
>> >>> purposes.
>> >>>
>> >>> So, no, there was no breach. Clayton knows all this.
>> >>>
>> >>> Saying it the way he did is a cheap shot at me, Patrick, Bruce Perens,
>> >>> and
>> >>> ORI.
>> >>>
>> >>> -Michelle W5NYV
>> >>>
>> >>> On Sun, Jul 12, 2020, 19:11 Kevin via AMSAT-BB <amsat-bb@?????.???>
>> >>> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> > Hello All,
>> >>> >
>> >>> > In a previous email to the BB I posted the link to the letter we
>> all
>> >>> > received as members.
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>>
>>
https://www.amsat.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/20200710_AMSAT_Lead
ership_Explains_Legal_Expenses.pdf
>> >>> >
>> >>> > I was re-reading it and something caught my eye that I had missed
>> >>> before.
>> >>> >
>> >>> > "AMSAT did not provide a copy of its membership mailing addresses to
>> >>> > Open Research Institute."
>> >>> >
>> >>> > Just how was our mailing list compromised? This seems like a
>> >>> serious
>> >>> > breech of security, was this a hack? was any other information lost?
>> >>> > was it ever found out how it happened? is our mailing list as they
>> say
>> >>> > "out in the wind"?
>> >>> >
>> >>> > Michelle could you possibly check from the ORI side and backtrack
>> how
>> >>> > ORI came into possession of the AMSAT mailing list, was it something
>> >>> > that was procured online?
>> >>> >
>> >>> > AMSAT needs to follow up on this privacy issue and report back what
>> it
>> >>> > found and any steps that were taken to prevent this from happening
>> in
>> >>> > the future.
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> > I look forward to an answer
>> >>> >
>> >>> > 73 Kevin WA7FWF #19623
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> > _______________________________________________
>> >>> > Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum
>> available
>> >>> > to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
>> >>> Opinions
>> >>> > expressed
>> >>> > are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official
>> views
>> >>> of
>> >>> > AMSAT-NA.
>> >>> > Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
>> >>> program!
>> >>> > Subscription settings:
>> https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>> >>> >
>> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
>> >>> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
>> >>> Opinions expressed
>> >>> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views
>> of
>> >>> AMSAT-NA.
>> >>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
>> >>> program!
>> >>> Subscription settings:
>> https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>> >>>
>> >>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
>> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
>> Opinions expressed
>> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
>> AMSAT-NA.
>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
>> Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>>
>
------------------------------
Subject: Digest Footer
_______________________________________________
Sent via amsat-bb@?????.???.
AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide
without requiring membership. Opinions expressed
are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
AMSAT-NA.
Not an AMSAT member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
------------------------------
End of AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol 15, Issue 248
*****************************************
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