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CX2SA > SATDIG 14.07.20 21:40l 1853 Lines 68698 Bytes #999 (0) @ WW
BID : AMSATBB15252
Read: GUEST
Subj: AMSAT-BB-digest V15 252
Path: IW8PGT<IZ3LSV<DB0ERF<DB0RES<ON0AR<OZ5BBS<CX2SA
Sent: 200714/1937Z @:CX2SA.SAL.URY.SOAM #:34946 [Salto] FBB7.00e $:AMSATBB15252
From: CX2SA@CX2SA.SAL.URY.SOAM
To : SATDIG@WW
Today's Topics:
1. Re: Slack vs. eMail -- The medium is the message (John Brier)
2. Re: Slack vs. eMail -- The medium is the message (Bob Hammond)
3. Re: Slack vs. eMail -- The medium is the message (Bruce Perens)
4. Re: Slack vs. eMail -- The medium is the message (GEO Badger)
5. Re: Slack vs. eMail -- The medium is the message
(Michelle Thompson)
6. Emergency Moderation Update. (Robert Bankston)
7. Re: Members Please Read (Bruce Perens) (Paul F. Merrill)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 13:30:10 -0400
From: John Brier <johnbrier@?????.???>
To: Eli Caul <eli.caul@?????.???>
Cc: "amsat-bb@?????.???? <amsat-bb@?????.???>
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Slack vs. eMail -- The medium is the message
Message-ID:
<CALn0fKNpR1YyXApNCnOfpgLOMgVzL4T_JUEW+jV-ehiqH6wLdw@????.?????.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
This increased activity won't go on indefinitely. If people can't
handle it they can switch to digest mode, filter it, or temporarily
unsubscribe, as some have. I don't think a big change like Slack is
necessary. Personally, I don't use it anywhere else so I'm not likely
to start running it just for AMSAT stuff.
73, John Brier KG4AKV
On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 1:05 PM Eli Caul via AMSAT-BB
<amsat-bb@?????.???> wrote:
>
> In my corporate experience, you need to be very careful with these
solutions - -It sounds great at first, but what ends up happening is you
create so many sub groups in an effort to cover every interest that you end
up with a big splintered environment in which you can?t find anything.
>
> Also, IM solutions like Teams, Slack etc are really trying to solve a
different problem. They are great for short sprints, projects, service
outages and the like, but the messages tend to be very ephemeral.
>
> We tried this in a few of the car clubs I participate in, and the people
who suffer the most are casual visitors. They read digests, or just
browse the list a few times a month and they get caught up.
>
> In an IM environment, it seems that you have to be on it every day or else
things get lost in the sands of time.
>
> We run a hybrid solution at work that might work well for AMSAT. Leave
the mailing list(s) basically as is, and then set up a Slack type solution
for special projects, or intense conversations like the recent thread re:
Amsat management and direction.
>
> Sharing my experience, HTH, etc etc
>
> '73 de KK6ZHZ
>
> - Eli Caul
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: AMSAT-BB <amsat-bb-bounces@?????.???> On Behalf Of Robert MacHale
via AMSAT-BB
> Sent: Tuesday, July 14, 2020 07:23
> To: amsat-bb@?????.???
> Subject: [amsat-bb] Slack vs. eMail -- The medium is the message
>
> Can I suggest moving AMSAT member communications from eMail to Slack?
>
> When I taught at UC Riverside last year - we used Slack to communicate
with students. The tech companies I have worked with in Southern California
have used Slack for many years. Recently, I noticed the Parrot Disco (RC
Glider) club uses Slack to communicate with volunteers and members:
>
> https://github.com/uavpal/disco4g
>
> The benefit to Slack is having channels for each topic. In this case,
discussion about Board Membership can be in it's own channel. People who are
not interested are not required to read.
>
> Each technology can have it's own channel. Each project can have it's own
channel. And, members can find each other easily.
> This current eMail subscription for all things creates a pain point -
encouraging everyone to read everything.
> I highly recommend the Board of Directors evaluate Slack as a replacement
for eMail; the corporate cost per user in low compared to value: excellent
ROI. Remember, eMail subscriptions became popular in the 1980s. This
protocol is entirely outdated and outmoded for conversations today. Keep in
mind, the Medium is the message - another reminder AmSat has become outdated
and outmoded and not keeping up with the times.
> Slack has been a positive and transforming tool employed on many projects
I have worked with recently.
> Sincerely,
>
> Robert MacHale. KE6BLR Ham Radio License. http://www.aprsat.com/predict .
http://www.spaceCommunicator.club . Supporting Boy Scout Merit Badges in
Radio, Robotics, and Space Exploration
>
> _______________________________________________
> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to
all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions
expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official
views of AMSAT-NA.
> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
> Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
> _______________________________________________
> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions
expressed
> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
AMSAT-NA.
> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
> Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 09:14:05 -0700
From: Bob Hammond <propgrinder@?????.???>
Cc: amsat-bb@?????.???
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Slack vs. eMail -- The medium is the message
Message-ID:
<CAKoB7OpFx-7ENJXTkUWVnGz++ySE4fLB8hxgxzRdoSJMJGcPEA@????.?????.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
I disagree regarding the use of Slack instead of email. To wit: ?With
email you know you probably have time to read through a bunch of messages
and have a day to respond,?. (quote from
https://www.wired.co.uk/article/slack-ruining-work )
Slack is IM. I'd rather have the AMSAT BB email.
Bob W7OTJ
On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 8:01 AM Robert MacHale via AMSAT-BB <
amsat-bb@?????.???> wrote:
> Can I suggest moving AMSAT member communications from eMail to Slack?
>
> When I taught at UC Riverside last year - we used Slack to communicate
> with students. The tech companies I have worked with in Southern California
> have used Slack for many years. Recently, I noticed the Parrot Disco (RC
> Glider) club uses Slack to communicate with volunteers and members:
>
> https://github.com/uavpal/disco4g
>
> The benefit to Slack is having channels for each topic. In this case,
> discussion about Board Membership can be in it's own channel. People who
> are not interested are not required to read.
>
> Each technology can have it's own channel. Each project can have it's own
> channel. And, members can find each other easily.
> This current eMail subscription for all things creates a pain point -
> encouraging everyone to read everything.
> I highly recommend the Board of Directors evaluate Slack as a replacement
> for eMail; the corporate cost per user in low compared to value: excellent
> ROI. Remember, eMail subscriptions became popular in the 1980s. This
> protocol is entirely outdated and outmoded for conversations today. Keep in
> mind, the Medium is the message - another reminder AmSat has become
> outdated and outmoded and not keeping up with the times.
> Slack has been a positive and transforming tool employed on many projects
> I have worked with recently.
> Sincerely,
>
> Robert MacHale. KE6BLR Ham Radio License. http://www.aprsat.com/predict
> . http://www.spaceCommunicator.club
> . Supporting Boy Scout Merit Badges in Radio, Robotics, and Space
> Exploration
>
> _______________________________________________
> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions
> expressed
> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
> AMSAT-NA.
> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
> Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 10:01:13 -0700
From: Bruce Perens <bruce@??????.???>
To: Eli Caul <eli.caul@?????.???>
Cc: "amsat-bb@?????.???? <amsat-bb@?????.???>
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Slack vs. eMail -- The medium is the message
Message-ID:
<CAK2MWOtaUUffsY_gohcq=B=gen+3+8=Psq+24eALUGE=yrVQkA@????.?????.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Sigh. The main advantage seems to be shutting out what you don't wish to
see. IMO members have a duty to involve themselves in the organization,
rather than changing the channel as if this was the annual PBS telethon and
they watch for free all year. AMSAT is not a public utility, paying your
dues once a year and going back to being on the air is not sufficient to
keep the satellites flying.
On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 9:53 AM Eli Caul via AMSAT-BB <amsat-bb@?????.???>
wrote:
> In my corporate experience, you need to be very careful with these
> solutions - -It sounds great at first, but what ends up happening is you
> create so many sub groups in an effort to cover every interest that you end
> up with a big splintered environment in which you can?t find anything.
>
> Also, IM solutions like Teams, Slack etc are really trying to solve a
> different problem. They are great for short sprints, projects, service
> outages and the like, but the messages tend to be very ephemeral.
>
> We tried this in a few of the car clubs I participate in, and the people
> who suffer the most are casual visitors. They read digests, or just
> browse the list a few times a month and they get caught up.
>
> In an IM environment, it seems that you have to be on it every day or else
> things get lost in the sands of time.
>
> We run a hybrid solution at work that might work well for AMSAT. Leave
> the mailing list(s) basically as is, and then set up a Slack type solution
> for special projects, or intense conversations like the recent thread re:
> Amsat management and direction.
>
> Sharing my experience, HTH, etc etc
>
> '73 de KK6ZHZ
>
> - Eli Caul
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: AMSAT-BB <amsat-bb-bounces@?????.???> On Behalf Of Robert MacHale
> via AMSAT-BB
> Sent: Tuesday, July 14, 2020 07:23
> To: amsat-bb@?????.???
> Subject: [amsat-bb] Slack vs. eMail -- The medium is the message
>
> Can I suggest moving AMSAT member communications from eMail to Slack?
>
> When I taught at UC Riverside last year - we used Slack to communicate
> with students. The tech companies I have worked with in Southern California
> have used Slack for many years. Recently, I noticed the Parrot Disco (RC
> Glider) club uses Slack to communicate with volunteers and members:
>
> https://github.com/uavpal/disco4g
>
> The benefit to Slack is having channels for each topic. In this case,
> discussion about Board Membership can be in it's own channel. People who
> are not interested are not required to read.
>
> Each technology can have it's own channel. Each project can have it's own
> channel. And, members can find each other easily.
> This current eMail subscription for all things creates a pain point -
> encouraging everyone to read everything.
> I highly recommend the Board of Directors evaluate Slack as a replacement
> for eMail; the corporate cost per user in low compared to value: excellent
> ROI. Remember, eMail subscriptions became popular in the 1980s. This
> protocol is entirely outdated and outmoded for conversations today. Keep in
> mind, the Medium is the message - another reminder AmSat has become
> outdated and outmoded and not keeping up with the times.
> Slack has been a positive and transforming tool employed on many projects
> I have worked with recently.
> Sincerely,
>
> Robert MacHale. KE6BLR Ham Radio License. http://www.aprsat.com/predict .
> http://www.spaceCommunicator.club . Supporting Boy Scout Merit Badges in
> Radio, Robotics, and Space Exploration
>
> _______________________________________________
> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to
> all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions
> expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official
> views of AMSAT-NA.
> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
> Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
> _______________________________________________
> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions
> expressed
> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
> AMSAT-NA.
> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
> Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>
--
Bruce Perens - CEO at stealth startup. I'll tell you what it is eventually
:-)
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 17:12:59 +0000 (UTC)
From: GEO Badger <w3ab@?????.???>
To: "amsat-bb@?????.???? <amsat-bb@?????.???>, Eli Caul
<eli.caul@?????.???>
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Slack vs. eMail -- The medium is the message
Message-ID: <1551611829.1550652.1594746779319@????.?????.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Eli,
You raise a valid point that I really had not considered. My experience has
been work related where the comms are short and project related, sometimes
lively.
But IMHO, a different approach should be considered with a hybrid being
possible.
---?
Ciao baby, catch you on the flip side??
73 de W3AB/GEO ???
http://www.w3ab.org
You can say "over", you can say "out", you just can't say "over and out".
On Tuesday, July 14, 2020, 09:53:31 AM PDT, Eli Caul via AMSAT-BB
<amsat-bb@?????.???> wrote:
In my corporate experience, you need to be very careful with these
solutions - -It sounds great at first, but what ends up happening is you
create so many sub groups in an effort to cover every interest that you end
up with a big splintered environment in which you can?t find anything.?
Also, IM solutions like Teams, Slack etc are really trying to solve a
different problem.? They are great for short sprints, projects, service
outages and the like, but the messages tend to be very ephemeral.
We tried this in a few of the car clubs I participate in, and the people who
suffer the most are casual visitors.? ? They read digests, or just browse
the list a few times a month and they get caught up.?
In an IM environment, it seems that you have to be on it every day or else
things get lost in the sands of time.
We run a hybrid solution at work that might work well for AMSAT.? Leave the
mailing list(s) basically as is, and then set up a Slack type solution for
special projects, or intense conversations like the recent thread re: Amsat
management and direction.?
Sharing my experience, HTH, etc etc
'73 de KK6ZHZ
- Eli Caul
-----Original Message-----
From: AMSAT-BB <amsat-bb-bounces@?????.???> On Behalf Of Robert MacHale via
AMSAT-BB
Sent: Tuesday, July 14, 2020 07:23
To: amsat-bb@?????.???
Subject: [amsat-bb] Slack vs. eMail -- The medium is the message
Can I suggest moving AMSAT member communications from eMail to Slack?
When I taught at UC Riverside last year - we used Slack to communicate with
students. The tech companies I have worked with in Southern California have
used Slack for many years. Recently, I noticed the Parrot Disco (RC Glider)
club uses Slack to communicate with volunteers and members:
https://github.com/uavpal/disco4g?
The benefit to Slack is having channels for each topic. In this case,
discussion about Board Membership can be in it's own channel. People who are
not interested are not required to read.
Each technology can have it's own channel. Each project can have it's own
channel. And, members can find each other easily.
This current eMail subscription for all things creates a pain point -
encouraging everyone to read everything.
I highly recommend the Board of Directors evaluate Slack as a replacement
for eMail; the corporate cost per user in low compared to value: excellent
ROI. Remember, eMail subscriptions became popular in the 1980s. This
protocol is entirely outdated and outmoded for conversations today. Keep in
mind, the Medium is the message - another reminder AmSat has become outdated
and outmoded and not keeping up with the times.
Slack has been a positive and transforming tool employed on many projects I
have worked with recently.
Sincerely,
Robert MacHale. KE6BLR Ham Radio License.?http://www.aprsat.com/predict
.?http://www.spaceCommunicator.club . Supporting Boy Scout Merit Badges in
Radio, Robotics, and Space Exploration
_______________________________________________
Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all
interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions
expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official
views of AMSAT-NA.
Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
_______________________________________________
Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions
expressed
are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
AMSAT-NA.
Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 10:38:26 -0700
From: Michelle Thompson <mountain.michelle@?????.???>
To: Eli Caul <eli.caul@?????.???>
Cc: AMSAT BB <amsat-bb@?????.???>
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Slack vs. eMail -- The medium is the message
Message-ID:
<CACvjz2XHuuKq_EFHAu2OdqhMAq0kVjqE8E5_4=4CWvHQTtHj9A@????.?????.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
We could have both.
They address different needs, I think.
Clayton said he wanted an AMSAT Slack a couple months ago. I strongly
supported him and gave him all the advice I had.
Slack has drawbacks. You can't block people, so you need a strong and
enforced community standard.
The owner can see everything. Everything! Choose admins wisely.
Even with nonprofit 85% discount, a lot of users will create expenses per
month.
It is best in class for collaboration.
It works best when it's single project focused, but a Slack for an entire
organization can work out well too.
You can manually export all messages, but otherwise its opaque and
proprietary.
Another option is Discord. There is at least one amsat discord server.
Details were posted here not that long ago.
An open source alternative is Matrix.
-Michelle W5NYV
On Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 10:06 Eli Caul via AMSAT-BB <amsat-bb@?????.???>
wrote:
> In my corporate experience, you need to be very careful with these
> solutions - -It sounds great at first, but what ends up happening is you
> create so many sub groups in an effort to cover every interest that you end
> up with a big splintered environment in which you can?t find anything.
>
> Also, IM solutions like Teams, Slack etc are really trying to solve a
> different problem. They are great for short sprints, projects, service
> outages and the like, but the messages tend to be very ephemeral.
>
> We tried this in a few of the car clubs I participate in, and the people
> who suffer the most are casual visitors. They read digests, or just
> browse the list a few times a month and they get caught up.
>
> In an IM environment, it seems that you have to be on it every day or else
> things get lost in the sands of time.
>
> We run a hybrid solution at work that might work well for AMSAT. Leave
> the mailing list(s) basically as is, and then set up a Slack type solution
> for special projects, or intense conversations like the recent thread re:
> Amsat management and direction.
>
> Sharing my experience, HTH, etc etc
>
> '73 de KK6ZHZ
>
> - Eli Caul
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: AMSAT-BB <amsat-bb-bounces@?????.???> On Behalf Of Robert MacHale
> via AMSAT-BB
> Sent: Tuesday, July 14, 2020 07:23
> To: amsat-bb@?????.???
> Subject: [amsat-bb] Slack vs. eMail -- The medium is the message
>
> Can I suggest moving AMSAT member communications from eMail to Slack?
>
> When I taught at UC Riverside last year - we used Slack to communicate
> with students. The tech companies I have worked with in Southern California
> have used Slack for many years. Recently, I noticed the Parrot Disco (RC
> Glider) club uses Slack to communicate with volunteers and members:
>
> https://github.com/uavpal/disco4g
>
> The benefit to Slack is having channels for each topic. In this case,
> discussion about Board Membership can be in it's own channel. People who
> are not interested are not required to read.
>
> Each technology can have it's own channel. Each project can have it's own
> channel. And, members can find each other easily.
> This current eMail subscription for all things creates a pain point -
> encouraging everyone to read everything.
> I highly recommend the Board of Directors evaluate Slack as a replacement
> for eMail; the corporate cost per user in low compared to value: excellent
> ROI. Remember, eMail subscriptions became popular in the 1980s. This
> protocol is entirely outdated and outmoded for conversations today. Keep in
> mind, the Medium is the message - another reminder AmSat has become
> outdated and outmoded and not keeping up with the times.
> Slack has been a positive and transforming tool employed on many projects
> I have worked with recently.
> Sincerely,
>
> Robert MacHale. KE6BLR Ham Radio License. http://www.aprsat.com/predict .
> http://www.spaceCommunicator.club . Supporting Boy Scout Merit Badges in
> Radio, Robotics, and Space Exploration
>
> _______________________________________________
> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to
> all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions
> expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official
> views of AMSAT-NA.
> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
> Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
> _______________________________________________
> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions
> expressed
> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
> AMSAT-NA.
> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
> Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 17:53:22 +0000 (UTC)
From: Robert Bankston <ke4al@?????.???>
To: AMSAT BB <amsat-bb@?????.???>
Subject: [amsat-bb] Emergency Moderation Update.
Message-ID: <651723002.1561595.1594749202514@????.?????.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
As you may or may not be aware, our IT department activated the Emergency
Moderation feature last night.
??
I am restoring AMSAT-BB back to full functionality; however I offer you this
stern warning.? If you violate AMSAT's Acceptable Use Policy, you will be
individually moderated.? This will serve as your first warning.? A second
offense will result in permanent removal from the list.
??
Subscribing to the AMSAT-BB is a privilege, not a right.? If you feel free
to yell, scream, attack, and/or make false/baseless accusations, do it in
your own back yard.? It will not be tolerated here.
??
Myself and my volunteer moderators are not here to babysit you.? Read the
AUP and understand this List is for constructive discussion, appropriate in
content and respectful of the other readers.
??
https://www.amsat.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/AMSAT_AUP_061819.pd
f)and understand
??
? Robert Bankston, KE4AL
? Vice-President, User Services
? Radio Amateur Satellite Corporation (AMSAT)
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 21:51:46 -0700
From: "Paul F. Merrill" <marinesvcs@?????.???>
To: Bruce Perens <bruce@??????.???>, amsat-bb@?????.???
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Members Please Read (Bruce Perens)
Message-ID:
<CAM42371ZxBrpty-zcxaATK32A0SsKBDTMY-oaRvqFxc9Jzbh4w@????.?????.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> Bruce - I responded to you privately - it took effort on your part to
> choose to add the entire group to your reply. By doing so, you've
> extablished, for me at least, your level of trustworthiness and integrity
> in this discussion.
Paul
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 11:09:12 -0700
> From: Bruce Perens <bruce@??????.???>
> To: "Paul F. Merrill" <marinesvcs@?????.???>, AMSAT BB
> <amsat-bb@?????.???>
> Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Members Please Read
> Message-ID:
> <
> CAK2MWOv13HXELW1kRJiZWGo2GUTBXgOV39atn5xVWY5SrKztzw@????.?????.???>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> The point I was trying to make was that by posing Robert's Rules as the
> tool of unsavory individuals, you seem to pose all rules that way. I think
> we should both agree that corporate directors should know their bylaws. It
> was my experience that Clayton did not read them before taking on operating
> the AMSAT election. AMSAT had to be told that it had a responsibility to
> provide addresses to the candidates for campaigning. The bylaws also call
> for the organizations publications to be available for campaigning - which
> is still not being fulfilled.
>
> Thanks
>
> Bruce
>
> On Mon, Jul 13, 2020, 12:31 AM Paul F. Merrill <marinesvcs@?????.???>
> wrote:
>
> > I know what they are. It was an example, perhaps too subtle, of the
> > continually-plumbed depths of human dipshittery.
> >
> > On Sun, Jul 12, 2020 at 23:01 Bruce Perens <bruce@??????.???> wrote:
> >
> >> Paul,
> >>
> >> Roberts Rules are regarding parliamentary procedure. AMSAT's bylaws are
> >> at
> >>
> https://www.amsat.org/bylaws-of-the-radio-amateur-satellite-corporation/
> >> . They do not specify parliamentary procedure. They are about
> >> responsibilities of a director, elections, etc. And if you have the
> choice,
> >> Roberts is an antique, good parliamentarians use Sturgis.
> >>
> >> Bruce
> >>
> >> On Sun, Jul 12, 2020, 9:12 PM Paul F. Merrill via AMSAT-BB <
> >> amsat-bb@?????.???> wrote:
> >>
> >>> I agree that this mailing list has strayed from its strongest
> >>> contribution:
> >>> satellite information, discussion, and mentoring.
> >>>
> >>> I come from, and have been on the BOD of, a professional organization
> >>> for a
> >>> number of years now.
> >>>
> >>> FWIW, I know too well that an organization often lawyers up to protect
> >>> itself, and in our issues, our attorney was engaged to act solely on
> >>> behalf
> >>> of the Organization and not necessarily current management.
> >>>
> >>> This thread has turned in to a long, ugly diatribe filled with
> >>> accusations,
> >>> counter-accusations, and painfully-obvious shills. I am a
> >>> recently-renewed
> >>> member who doesn?t have a dog in the fight, so I just want what?s best
> >>> for
> >>> AMSAT.
> >>>
> >>> Sadly, the stereotypes are starting to show - the members who
> contribute
> >>> nothing but want to tear down those ?In power,? the members who
> >>> contribute
> >>> nothing and don?t want anyone to make waves, and the few who actually
> do
> >>> anything. As a number of people have commented, working in a
> non-profit
> >>> or
> >>> unpaid leadership role is utterly thankless, which is lost on many
> >>> people -
> >>> especially those who have never labored in this sort of endeavor.
> >>>
> >>> My favorite story from our times of trouble is when our Parliamentarian
> >>> said, ?Roberts Rules are the last refuge of a scoundrel. Grown men and
> >>> women should be able to comport themselves reasonably...but then I?d be
> >>> out
> >>> of a job.? I?m taking a little license with his exact words, but the
> >>> sentiment, along with my experience, formed my native distrust of those
> >>> who
> >>> are right and everyone and everything before them is wrong.
> So...there?s
> >>> my bias. I will examine that, and all the information I can before I
> >>> vote. I hope everyone else will take the time and expend the effort to
> >>> vote as intelligently as they can.
> >>>
> >>> My overriding guidance to my Association is that we contribute to the
> >>> group
> >>> so that we all benefit from the group. A strong organization should
> >>> outlive us.
> >>>
> >>> Personally, I can?t wait to vote and hopefully put a fork in this.
> >>>
> >>> Paul / W7IV
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ????????-
> >>>
> >>> Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2020 19:27:24 -0700
> >>> From: "Daron Wilson" <daron@??????.???>
> >>> To: "'AMSAT BB'" <amsat-bb@?????.???>
> >>> Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Members Please Read
> >>> Message-ID: <00b501d658bd$26119cc0$7234d640$@???>
> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> >>>
> >>> Is there a bulletin board that discusses amateur radio satellites
> >>> operations still? Asking for a friend. This is getting old.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Daron N7HQR
> >>>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >>> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
> >>> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
> >>> Opinions expressed
> >>> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views
> of
> >>> AMSAT-NA.
> >>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
> >>> program!
> >>> Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
> >>>
> >>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 12:13:46 -0700
> From: Bruce Perens <bruce@??????.???>
> To: AMSAT BB <amsat-bb@?????.???>
> Subject: [amsat-bb] Why we are having this big unpleasant argument on
> your satellite mailing list
> Message-ID:
> <
> CAK2MWOsL+EO6q3QnLjL395uSeLZR8QnkUuD9q3nJ+O4e7Kvytw@????.?????.???>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> Most of you are members of AMSAT. IMO the organization has some serious
> problems, and as members it is your duty to steer the organization with
> your votes. That means that you should remain aware of what is going on and
> you should make an informed vote. The satellite discussions go on, mostly
> uninterrupted, all year. A short break for politics is not unreasonable,
> and acrimonious discussion is to be expected when we take that break.
>
> Organisations are run by people who would not be doing the work if they did
> not have strong emotions about it. And they all have their own failings.
> Unfortunately, volunteer non-profit directors (and many public ones in big
> corporations) never learn a critical skill of democracy: *how to deal
> properly with opposition. *That is the root of what we are arguing about
> now. Opposition are not the enemy! Yet, they are clearly being treated as
> such. They are simply people who would reform the organization or take it
> in a different direction from the incumbents.
>
> In this case, Michelle and Patrick, before they were elected, were the
> loyal opposition - dedicated to a better organization, and deeply troubled
> by the decisions and conduct of the incumbent board. The incumbent's
> response was not to work with the opposition, but to hunker down and use
> lawyers. To the incumbent's great distress, the very same people got sent
> to the board by the membership! Leading to more lawyers. IMO the incumbents
> should have read this as a signal from the membership, rather than doubling
> down their resistance.
>
> The sad reality is that the newly-elected directors have never been allowed
> to function as directors. You should be concerned, since they are the
> people whom you elected to represent you. The main means used to disable
> your elected representatives has been refusal by the incumbents to hold
> board meetings. This refusal is almost total, with exactly *one* meeting
> being held after the organization's annual convention.
>
> The second means used to disenfranchise the newly-elected directors was
> that the incumbents withheld information which a director would generally
> be expected to have access to. As it happened, this information was at
> least in part discussion of those very same people, and contracting of
> legal counsel in a process against them.
>
> Every board has the right to legal counsel. But it's expensive, and must be
> used wisely. This was not a wise use. A wise use would have been to engage
> the opposition rather than to hunker down.
>
> One very large cause of all of this is that the same people have been
> running AMSAT for a very long time, and it becomes an echo chamber after a
> while - the us-vs-them mentality of the board vs. the opposition - but
> really the board vs. everyone else - becomes self-reinforcing.
>
> This is obviously wrong for the organization. The solution is simple, and
> every organization needs it: *regular turn-over of the people in the
> organization's leadership. *Not the stratification that we currently have.
>
> You can fix this by electing more new blood to the board.
>
> Thanks
>
> Bruce
>
> --
> Bruce Perens - CEO at stealth startup. I'll tell you what it is eventually
> :-)
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 15:06:31 -0400
> From: Efrem Acosta <W2CZ@?????????.???>
> To: amsat-bb@?????.???
> Subject: [amsat-bb] A question
> Message-ID: <F1920021-98F0-4650-B305-74A7DB72521E@?????????.???>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> Is it true all posts now on this board are being held for approval by a
> moderator?
>
>
>
> 73 De W2CZ
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 12:45:19 -0700
> From: Bruce Perens <bruce@??????.???>
> To: David Swanson <dave@?????????????.???>
> Cc: AMSAT BB <amsat-bb@?????.???>
> Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] AMSAT Member Mailing list
> Message-ID:
> <CAK2MWOv-v8yj5NwO7XKz=
> nwxb+p1u-7FUF+fTJUKuNvQ7BPP7g@????.?????.???>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> David,
>
> My tweet was NOT deleted, and is still on twitter at
> https://twitter.com/BrucePerens/status/1154844208458416128
> As stated repeatedly, both by myself and Michelle, I did not handle the
> mailing list, she did. Which was 100% her right as a candidate.
>
> Thanks
>
> Bruce
>
> On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 11:26 AM David Swanson via AMSAT-BB <
> amsat-bb@?????.???> wrote:
>
> > It's always fun to remind folks tripping over their own feat lying that
> the
> > internet is forever. From a Bruce Perens Tweet on July 13, 2020:
> >
> > "Please see my letter on the web, or the paper copy I've mailed to
> everyone
> > one of you".
> >
> > Of course the original tweet was deleted, but the wayback machine never
> > forgets. Don't Believe me? http://druidnetworks.com/2020-07-13.png
> >
> > If you still think the membership list wasn't compromised, I just heard
> > Director Thompson will be auctioning off their ocean front property in
> > Arizona to all the members this year to raise funds for their microwave,
> > digital only, strictly open source crowd funded, vegan, social justice
> > aware cubesat launch to Proxima Centauri. Of course this launch will only
> > come after 10 years of ground station development, but fueled with enough
> > hopes, dreams and promises it will become a reality!
> >
> > For the rest of us who actually want to keep amateur radio in (real)
> space
> > and are disgusted at the violations of privacy that occured by 3rd
> parties
> > working to get Director Thompson and Director Stoddard elected, well, you
> > should know what to do.
> >
> > -Dave, KG5CCI
> >
> > On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 9:24 AM Michelle Thompson <
> > mountain.michelle@?????.???> wrote:
> >
> > > No database went anywhere except to candidates. This is allowed in the
> > > bylaws.
> > >
> > > Then, an automated bulk mail printing server was used. I recommended
> the
> > > company to Brennan Price for this year's mailing. Good service,
> > > inexpensive.
> > >
> > > Return addresses don't magically transfer information.
> > >
> > > -Michelle W5NYV
> > >
> > >
> > > On Mon, Jul 13, 2020, 04:32 David Swanson <dave@?????????????.???>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > >> Spin Spin Spin. The simple truth here is Director Thompson took the
> > AMSAT
> > >> member database, and handed it over to a 3rd party competing entity
> for
> > the
> > >> purpose of solicitation. I know I did not give ORI my home address,
> yet
> > ORI
> > >> sent me a letter. This was a violation of my privacy, and for AMSAT
> > >> members living in the EU, this was a violation of the law. Any attempt
> > to
> > >> explain this away is just more lies and deceit from Director Thompson
> > about
> > >> the shady practices they have engaged in over the past few years. As I
> > keep
> > >> saying, this isn't a one time thing, this is a pattern of
> > >> reprehensible behavior that is unbecoming of an elected position and
> > this
> > >> community. Director Thompson and Director Stoddard should resign.
> > >>
> > >> -Dave, KG5CCI
> > >>
> > >> On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 5:33 AM Michelle Thompson via AMSAT-BB <
> > >> amsat-bb@?????.???> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> Yes, I can.
> > >>>
> > >>> That part of Clayton's letter is wrong and has been repeatedly
> > clarified
> > >>> before. Including at the 2019 annual board meeting, where Tom Clark
> > asked
> > >>> me about it, as part of the record.
> > >>>
> > >>> Clayton Coleman was secretary in 2019.
> > >>>
> > >>> He ran the election.
> > >>>
> > >>> He decided that candidate statements were limited in length to 350
> > words,
> > >>> would be subject to editorial control by AMSAT, and could not include
> > >>> links. These new rules were given to us right before the 4th of July
> > >>> holiday with a deadline of the 7th.
> > >>>
> > >>> This is different than any election before, where statements went
> > >>> directly
> > >>> to the printer from the candidate, were not limited in length, and no
> > one
> > >>> from AMSAT leadership (who might be running for reelection
> themselves)
> > >>> had
> > >>> any control over the content of their challengers' statements.
> > >>>
> > >>> We got these rules right before ballots went out. We (four
> challengers)
> > >>> already had normal-sized statements on the web and they had been up
> six
> > >>> weeks at that point. Those were the ones we wanted to use, and link
> to.
> > >>>
> > >>> We knew that as candidates, we had the right to request the mailing
> > list,
> > >>> and send our own statements, independent of the ballot.
> > >>>
> > >>> I requested the address list and got the DBASE4 export.
> > >>>
> > >>> Bruce Perens had already written a letter of support and distributed
> it
> > >>> widely on the web. It introduced us and included our four full bios
> and
> > >>> statements.
> > >>>
> > >>> I asked Bruce if we could use his letter in the mailing. He said yes.
> > >>> Since
> > >>> he was President of Open Research Institute at the time, he wanted
> the
> > >>> return address to not be his private home address, but a business
> > >>> address.
> > >>> That was ORI's address. He was the author of the endorsement, so I
> used
> > >>> his
> > >>> preferred return address.
> > >>>
> > >>> I converted the DBASE4 to a more useful format, fixed the 50 or so
> > >>> undeliverable addresses, and found an inexpensive printer. Then I
> sent
> > >>> the
> > >>> letter from Bruce to the printer, with the bios and statements.
> > >>>
> > >>> That turned out to be a good thing. Bios and statements were not
> > included
> > >>> with the ballots mailed out, at all.
> > >>>
> > >>> If we had not sent the letter, then name recognition would be the
> > primary
> > >>> factor. We were running against well-known people.
> > >>>
> > >>> We complained about this. It was unusual departure from the past and
> > >>> seemed
> > >>> set up to let leadership benefit from being incumbents.
> > >>>
> > >>> The original proposal from Clayton was for an electronic only ballot.
> > >>> Patrick said that the bylaws were a bit clunky here and it did need
> to
> > be
> > >>> mailed out on paper. Paper was required.
> > >>>
> > >>> This is a big reason why I made a motion at our one board meeting,
> in
> > >>> March, for a bylaws committee.
> > >>>
> > >>> This bylaw isn't hard to fix. There's lots of examples out there of
> > >>> organizations doing electronic voting with working published bylaws.
> > >>>
> > >>> Bruce made it very clear, when the incumbents stirred up the pot
> about
> > >>> the
> > >>> return address, that it was an endorsement from him, this was
> commonly
> > >>> done
> > >>> in political campaigns, and it would be grossly improper for me to
> use
> > >>> AMSATs return address because that would make it look like Bruce was
> > >>> speaking for or was from AMSAT. That was not going to happen. *That*
> > >>> would
> > >>> be improper.
> > >>>
> > >>> No one candidate wanted their personal address used as a return
> > address.
> > >>> We
> > >>> were mailing this as a slate and splitting the cost. We didn't have
> > time
> > >>> or
> > >>> funds to make an organization or rent a box for one letter on short
> > >>> notice.
> > >>> The printer required a real return address.
> > >>>
> > >>> No one had the address list except the candidates. Namely me because
> I
> > >>> contracted the printer and handled the DBASE4 address conversion.
> That
> > >>> is a
> > >>> neat story in and of itself,, for another time.
> > >>>
> > >>> Bruce only sent the text to me and chipped in some money for postage.
> > >>>
> > >>> The printing was automated in Van Nuys, CA.
> > >>>
> > >>> All of this is known to Clayton Coleman and his friends on the board
> > that
> > >>> signed the statement from this week. It has been explained by Bruce
> > >>> publicly, and by me several times on social media. Tom Clark brought
> it
> > >>> up
> > >>> at the 2019 annual board meeting because of the return address
> > >>> pot-stirring. I explained it there too. Like I said, it's on the
> > record.
> > >>>
> > >>> I think insinuating the addresses were mishandled is a deliberate
> > >>> twisting
> > >>> of honest efforts to scramble to get uncensored candidate statements
> > out
> > >>> to
> > >>> voters on short notice. We just didn't have a lot of time, and Bruce
> > was
> > >>> very generous in writing a cover letter.
> > >>>
> > >>> Again, candidates are allowed the use of the mailing lists for
> election
> > >>> purposes.
> > >>>
> > >>> So, no, there was no breach. Clayton knows all this.
> > >>>
> > >>> Saying it the way he did is a cheap shot at me, Patrick, Bruce
> Perens,
> > >>> and
> > >>> ORI.
> > >>>
> > >>> -Michelle W5NYV
> > >>>
> > >>> On Sun, Jul 12, 2020, 19:11 Kevin via AMSAT-BB <amsat-bb@?????.???>
> > >>> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> > Hello All,
> > >>> >
> > >>> > In a previous email to the BB I posted the link to the letter we
> > all
> > >>> > received as members.
> > >>> >
> > >>> >
> > >>> >
> > >>>
> >
>
https://www.amsat.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/20200710_AMSAT_Lead
ership_Explains_Legal_Expenses.pdf
> > >>> >
> > >>> > I was re-reading it and something caught my eye that I had missed
> > >>> before.
> > >>> >
> > >>> > "AMSAT did not provide a copy of its membership mailing addresses
> to
> > >>> > Open Research Institute."
> > >>> >
> > >>> > Just how was our mailing list compromised? This seems like a
> > >>> serious
> > >>> > breech of security, was this a hack? was any other information
> lost?
> > >>> > was it ever found out how it happened? is our mailing list as they
> > say
> > >>> > "out in the wind"?
> > >>> >
> > >>> > Michelle could you possibly check from the ORI side and backtrack
> how
> > >>> > ORI came into possession of the AMSAT mailing list, was it
> something
> > >>> > that was procured online?
> > >>> >
> > >>> > AMSAT needs to follow up on this privacy issue and report back what
> > it
> > >>> > found and any steps that were taken to prevent this from happening
> in
> > >>> > the future.
> > >>> >
> > >>> >
> > >>> > I look forward to an answer
> > >>> >
> > >>> > 73 Kevin WA7FWF #19623
> > >>> >
> > >>> >
> > >>> >
> > >>> >
> > >>> >
> > >>> >
> > >>> > _______________________________________________
> > >>> > Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum
> > available
> > >>> > to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
> > >>> Opinions
> > >>> > expressed
> > >>> > are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official
> views
> > >>> of
> > >>> > AMSAT-NA.
> > >>> > Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
> > >>> program!
> > >>> > Subscription settings:
> > https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
> > >>> >
> > >>> _______________________________________________
> > >>> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum
> available
> > >>> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
> > >>> Opinions expressed
> > >>> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views
> > of
> > >>> AMSAT-NA.
> > >>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
> > >>> program!
> > >>> Subscription settings:
> https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
> > >>>
> > >>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
> > to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
> Opinions
> > expressed
> > are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
> > AMSAT-NA.
> > Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
> program!
> > Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
> >
>
>
> --
> Bruce Perens - CEO at stealth startup. I'll tell you what it is eventually
> :-)
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 03:04:44 +0700
> From: Kenneth P Alexander <ve3hls@?????.???>
> To: Steve Kristoff <skristof@???????.???>
> Cc: AMSAT -BB <amsat-bb@?????.???>
> Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] AMSAT Member Mailing list
> Message-ID:
> <CAPOM0d=
> Pt9kPtHNmgxtfZdM4q2JxxqkbMFNM1pAxdj1cZFLFog@????.?????.???>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> It's not that simple Brian. If you follow that line of thinking then
> people by the thousands would be renouncing their American citizenship
> because of the current shitshow in Washington, but I haven't heard of that
> happening.
>
> The best thing to do is stay in the game, sort through the hysteria and
> misinformation and exercise your right to vote when the time comes. Then
> you can move Amsat back to becoming an organization you'll want to remain a
> part of.
>
> Ok, back to sleep for me!
>
> 73,
>
> Ken Alexander, VE3HLS
> So Phisai, Thailand
> Blog: bueng-ken.com
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 2:52 AM Steve Kristoff via AMSAT-BB <
> amsat-bb@?????.???> wrote:
>
> >
> > I worked a satellite just this morning. They are still up there. Just
> have
> > to step away from the computer and turn on the radio.
> >
> > Steve Ai9IN
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Brian Karcher via AMSAT-BB (amsat-bb@?????.????
> > Date: 07/13/20 12:10
> > To: amsat-bb@?????.???? amsat-bb-request@?????.???
> > Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] AMSAT Member Mailing list
> >
> > I thought being a member of AMSAT was about keeping amateur radio in
> > space, learning about satellites and for some of us working amateur radio
> > satellites in space. Since the last election AMSAT seems to be about
> > nothing but politics and misinformation. In my opinion AMSAT was a lot
> > more fun to be apart of before the last election. All the politics and
> > misinformation drives people away from AMSAT and is not good for the
> > organization. I have been told in the past by one of the new board
> members
> > that all of this is necessary for change to happen. I don't see that
> AMSAT
> > has to go through some fundamental change or movement. I am tired of the
> > new AMSAT since the last election. I am seriously considering not
> renewing
> > my membership and I know plenty of other that are considering the same.
> > When will all of this end so we can start enjoying AMSAT again and
> working
> > satellites?
> >
> > Brian D. Karcher
> > KG5GJT
> >
> > >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
> > to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
> Opinions
> > expressed
> > are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
> > AMSAT-NA.
> > Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
> program!
> > Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 15:23:41 -0500
> From: David Swanson <dave@?????????????.???>
> To: Bruce Perens <bruce@??????.???>
> Cc: AMSAT BB <amsat-bb@?????.???>
> Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] AMSAT Member Mailing list
> Message-ID:
> <
> CANq+eyV985yF4XZAmiZ0oifyutc+nGosE8RgpC0rZjtuC8h6SA@????.?????.???>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> By your own words, it was YOUR letter, in a letter YOU sent. No matter how
> many times you try and repeat the same line now - you've already proven
> yourself to be a fraud.
>
> And by the way, people often violate the rules for stupid and unnecassary
> reasons. It's very rarely the big lie you get caught in, it's all the
> smaller ones you use to cover the big one up.
>
> -Dave, KG5CCI
>
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 13:29:50 -0700
> From: Fernando Ramirez <framirezferrer@?????.???>
> To: Daniel Velez <djvnet@?????.???>
> Cc: AMSAT -BB <amsat-bb@?????.???>
> Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] when is the election being discussed?
> Message-ID:
> <
> CAGHXx8jLoX5ADt7jDHfkh-OOBnH3zWFukA8oAHT-0R3Fq9O3Fw@????.?????.???>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> If you joined our renewed before July 1st, you will be getting a ballot
> after July 15.
>
> Saludos
> Fernando, KF7R
>
> On Mon, Jul 13, 2020, 1:26 PM Daniel Velez via AMSAT-BB <
> amsat-bb@?????.???>
> wrote:
>
> > I joined in June but I haven't seen any ballot info.
> > 73 de Dan
> > _______________________________________________
> > Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
> > to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
> Opinions
> > expressed
> > are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
> > AMSAT-NA.
> > Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
> program!
> > Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 16:33:45 -0400
> From: Arthur Feller <afeller@????.???>
> To: Michelle Thompson <mountain.michelle@?????.???>
> Cc: AMSAT BB <amsat-bb@?????.???>
> Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] AMSAT-NA, another perspective
> Message-ID: <98C0DFD9-D12C-454B-BC39-30133A8CA3FD@????.???>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
> AMSAT Members:
>
> We?re going around in circles, getting nowhere fast. No resolution in
> sight; only repetition, irritation, and turning away new and renewing
> members. Not constructive.
>
> Much as these subjects need to be and should be discussed, may I suggest
> taking this thread offline?
>
> I?m willing to facilitate an offline discussion.
>
> 73, art?..
> W4ART Arlington VA
> LM-113
>
> To thrive in life, you need three bones: a wish bone, a back bone, and a
> funny bone.
> - Reba McEntire
>
> http://afeller.us <http://afeller.us/>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 20:35:14 +0000 (UTC)
> From: GEO Badger <w3ab@?????.???>
> To: AMSAT BB <amsat-bb@?????.???>
> Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] AMSAT-NA, another perspective
> Message-ID: <865720374.1065652.1594672514170@????.?????.???>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> I believe that all 501(c)(3) orgs must hold at least one BOD meeting per
> year or it is in violation of the incorporation rules and the org will risk
> losing their tax exempt status.
> 3 Annual Requirements Every Nonprofit Should Know
>
> |
> |
> |
> | | |
>
> |
>
> |
> |
> | |
> 3 Annual Requirements Every Nonprofit Should Know
>
> Congratulations, you?ve received 501(c)(3) status, so now what!? PAPERWORK
> AND MEETINGS! And also working for th...
> |
>
> |
>
> |
>
>
>
> ---??
> Ciao baby, catch you on the flip side??
> 73 de W3AB/GEO ????
>
> http://www.w3ab.org
>
> You can say "over", you can say "out", you just can't say "over and out".
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 10
> Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 13:13:20 -0700
> From: Bruce Perens <bruce@??????.???>
> To: David Swanson <dave@?????????????.???>
> Cc: AMSAT BB <amsat-bb@?????.???>
> Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] AMSAT Member Mailing list
> Message-ID:
> <CAK2MWOvcy8V-UUYKEi9QYKuB5p=
> Bd-rVVg1KH5DReZ91rwCHcA@????.?????.???>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> OK, Dave, you were not born yesterday :-) As I have said, I never touched
> the mailing list, and never had to. I contributed $500 for postage, the
> rest was provided by the candidates. But if I *had* touched the mailing
> list, what nefarious things would I have done with it? You are mostly all
> listed on QRZ, etc. Am I the guy sending you those mails about how Ed
> McMahon will hand you the million-dollar check from Publishers Clearing
> House?
>
> What I am getting at here is that people don't violate rules for really
> stupid and unnecessary reasons. There was a simple way to send the letter
> within the rules, and we did it.
>
> Thanks
>
> Bruce
>
> On Mon, Jul 13, 2020, 12:55 PM David Swanson <dave@?????????????.???>
> wrote:
>
> > My apologies on the Twitter claim - when I tried loading it from source
> > nothing was displaying pre January 28th, 2020 - the day of your 'I am
> > signing off of social networking' declaration. (How'd that go btw?) I
> only
> > assumed you had deleted your tweets.
> >
> > As to your never ending story changing about the mailing list, I was born
> > at night, but it wasn't last night. Go try your story on another mark.
> >
> > -Dave, KG5CCI
> >
> > On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 2:45 PM Bruce Perens <bruce@??????.???> wrote:
> >
> >> David,
> >>
> >> My tweet was NOT deleted, and is still on twitter at
> >> https://twitter.com/BrucePerens/status/1154844208458416128
> >> As stated repeatedly, both by myself and Michelle, I did not handle the
> >> mailing list, she did. Which was 100% her right as a candidate.
> >>
> >> Thanks
> >>
> >> Bruce
> >>
> >> On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 11:26 AM David Swanson via AMSAT-BB <
> >> amsat-bb@?????.???> wrote:
> >>
> >>> It's always fun to remind folks tripping over their own feat lying that
> >>> the
> >>> internet is forever. From a Bruce Perens Tweet on July 13, 2020:
> >>>
> >>> "Please see my letter on the web, or the paper copy I've mailed to
> >>> everyone
> >>> one of you".
> >>>
> >>> Of course the original tweet was deleted, but the wayback machine never
> >>> forgets. Don't Believe me? http://druidnetworks.com/2020-07-13.png
> >>>
> >>> If you still think the membership list wasn't compromised, I just heard
> >>> Director Thompson will be auctioning off their ocean front property in
> >>> Arizona to all the members this year to raise funds for their
> microwave,
> >>> digital only, strictly open source crowd funded, vegan, social justice
> >>> aware cubesat launch to Proxima Centauri. Of course this launch will
> only
> >>> come after 10 years of ground station development, but fueled with
> enough
> >>> hopes, dreams and promises it will become a reality!
> >>>
> >>> For the rest of us who actually want to keep amateur radio in (real)
> >>> space
> >>> and are disgusted at the violations of privacy that occured by 3rd
> >>> parties
> >>> working to get Director Thompson and Director Stoddard elected, well,
> you
> >>> should know what to do.
> >>>
> >>> -Dave, KG5CCI
> >>>
> >>> On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 9:24 AM Michelle Thompson <
> >>> mountain.michelle@?????.???> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> > No database went anywhere except to candidates. This is allowed in
> the
> >>> > bylaws.
> >>> >
> >>> > Then, an automated bulk mail printing server was used. I recommended
> >>> the
> >>> > company to Brennan Price for this year's mailing. Good service,
> >>> > inexpensive.
> >>> >
> >>> > Return addresses don't magically transfer information.
> >>> >
> >>> > -Michelle W5NYV
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> > On Mon, Jul 13, 2020, 04:32 David Swanson <dave@?????????????.???>
> >>> wrote:
> >>> >
> >>> >> Spin Spin Spin. The simple truth here is Director Thompson took the
> >>> AMSAT
> >>> >> member database, and handed it over to a 3rd party competing entity
> >>> for the
> >>> >> purpose of solicitation. I know I did not give ORI my home address,
> >>> yet ORI
> >>> >> sent me a letter. This was a violation of my privacy, and for AMSAT
> >>> >> members living in the EU, this was a violation of the law. Any
> >>> attempt to
> >>> >> explain this away is just more lies and deceit from Director
> Thompson
> >>> about
> >>> >> the shady practices they have engaged in over the past few years. As
> >>> I keep
> >>> >> saying, this isn't a one time thing, this is a pattern of
> >>> >> reprehensible behavior that is unbecoming of an elected position and
> >>> this
> >>> >> community. Director Thompson and Director Stoddard should resign.
> >>> >>
> >>> >> -Dave, KG5CCI
> >>> >>
> >>> >> On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 5:33 AM Michelle Thompson via AMSAT-BB <
> >>> >> amsat-bb@?????.???> wrote:
> >>> >>
> >>> >>> Yes, I can.
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> That part of Clayton's letter is wrong and has been repeatedly
> >>> clarified
> >>> >>> before. Including at the 2019 annual board meeting, where Tom Clark
> >>> asked
> >>> >>> me about it, as part of the record.
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> Clayton Coleman was secretary in 2019.
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> He ran the election.
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> He decided that candidate statements were limited in length to 350
> >>> words,
> >>> >>> would be subject to editorial control by AMSAT, and could not
> include
> >>> >>> links. These new rules were given to us right before the 4th of
> July
> >>> >>> holiday with a deadline of the 7th.
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> This is different than any election before, where statements went
> >>> >>> directly
> >>> >>> to the printer from the candidate, were not limited in length, and
> >>> no one
> >>> >>> from AMSAT leadership (who might be running for reelection
> >>> themselves)
> >>> >>> had
> >>> >>> any control over the content of their challengers' statements.
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> We got these rules right before ballots went out. We (four
> >>> challengers)
> >>> >>> already had normal-sized statements on the web and they had been up
> >>> six
> >>> >>> weeks at that point. Those were the ones we wanted to use, and link
> >>> to.
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> We knew that as candidates, we had the right to request the mailing
> >>> list,
> >>> >>> and send our own statements, independent of the ballot.
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> I requested the address list and got the DBASE4 export.
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> Bruce Perens had already written a letter of support and
> distributed
> >>> it
> >>> >>> widely on the web. It introduced us and included our four full bios
> >>> and
> >>> >>> statements.
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> I asked Bruce if we could use his letter in the mailing. He said
> yes.
> >>> >>> Since
> >>> >>> he was President of Open Research Institute at the time, he wanted
> >>> the
> >>> >>> return address to not be his private home address, but a business
> >>> >>> address.
> >>> >>> That was ORI's address. He was the author of the endorsement, so I
> >>> used
> >>> >>> his
> >>> >>> preferred return address.
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> I converted the DBASE4 to a more useful format, fixed the 50 or so
> >>> >>> undeliverable addresses, and found an inexpensive printer. Then I
> >>> sent
> >>> >>> the
> >>> >>> letter from Bruce to the printer, with the bios and statements.
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> That turned out to be a good thing. Bios and statements were not
> >>> included
> >>> >>> with the ballots mailed out, at all.
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> If we had not sent the letter, then name recognition would be the
> >>> primary
> >>> >>> factor. We were running against well-known people.
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> We complained about this. It was unusual departure from the past
> and
> >>> >>> seemed
> >>> >>> set up to let leadership benefit from being incumbents.
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> The original proposal from Clayton was for an electronic only
> ballot.
> >>> >>> Patrick said that the bylaws were a bit clunky here and it did need
> >>> to be
> >>> >>> mailed out on paper. Paper was required.
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> This is a big reason why I made a motion at our one board meeting,
> >>> in
> >>> >>> March, for a bylaws committee.
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> This bylaw isn't hard to fix. There's lots of examples out there of
> >>> >>> organizations doing electronic voting with working published
> bylaws.
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> Bruce made it very clear, when the incumbents stirred up the pot
> >>> about
> >>> >>> the
> >>> >>> return address, that it was an endorsement from him, this was
> >>> commonly
> >>> >>> done
> >>> >>> in political campaigns, and it would be grossly improper for me to
> >>> use
> >>> >>> AMSATs return address because that would make it look like Bruce
> was
> >>> >>> speaking for or was from AMSAT. That was not going to happen.
> *That*
> >>> >>> would
> >>> >>> be improper.
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> No one candidate wanted their personal address used as a return
> >>> address.
> >>> >>> We
> >>> >>> were mailing this as a slate and splitting the cost. We didn't have
> >>> time
> >>> >>> or
> >>> >>> funds to make an organization or rent a box for one letter on short
> >>> >>> notice.
> >>> >>> The printer required a real return address.
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> No one had the address list except the candidates. Namely me
> because
> >>> I
> >>> >>> contracted the printer and handled the DBASE4 address conversion.
> >>> That
> >>> >>> is a
> >>> >>> neat story in and of itself,, for another time.
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> Bruce only sent the text to me and chipped in some money for
> postage.
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> The printing was automated in Van Nuys, CA.
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> All of this is known to Clayton Coleman and his friends on the
> board
> >>> that
> >>> >>> signed the statement from this week. It has been explained by Bruce
> >>> >>> publicly, and by me several times on social media. Tom Clark
> brought
> >>> it
> >>> >>> up
> >>> >>> at the 2019 annual board meeting because of the return address
> >>> >>> pot-stirring. I explained it there too. Like I said, it's on the
> >>> record.
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> I think insinuating the addresses were mishandled is a deliberate
> >>> >>> twisting
> >>> >>> of honest efforts to scramble to get uncensored candidate
> statements
> >>> out
> >>> >>> to
> >>> >>> voters on short notice. We just didn't have a lot of time, and
> Bruce
> >>> was
> >>> >>> very generous in writing a cover letter.
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> Again, candidates are allowed the use of the mailing lists for
> >>> election
> >>> >>> purposes.
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> So, no, there was no breach. Clayton knows all this.
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> Saying it the way he did is a cheap shot at me, Patrick, Bruce
> >>> Perens,
> >>> >>> and
> >>> >>> ORI.
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> -Michelle W5NYV
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> On Sun, Jul 12, 2020, 19:11 Kevin via AMSAT-BB <amsat-bb@?????.???
> >
> >>> >>> wrote:
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> > Hello All,
> >>> >>> >
> >>> >>> > In a previous email to the BB I posted the link to the letter
> >>> we all
> >>> >>> > received as members.
> >>> >>> >
> >>> >>> >
> >>> >>> >
> >>> >>>
> >>>
>
https://www.amsat.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/20200710_AMSAT_Lead
ership_Explains_Legal_Expenses.pdf
> >>> >>> >
> >>> >>> > I was re-reading it and something caught my eye that I had missed
> >>> >>> before.
> >>> >>> >
> >>> >>> > "AMSAT did not provide a copy of its membership mailing addresses
> >>> to
> >>> >>> > Open Research Institute."
> >>> >>> >
> >>> >>> > Just how was our mailing list compromised? This seems like a
> >>> >>> serious
> >>> >>> > breech of security, was this a hack? was any other information
> >>> lost?
> >>> >>> > was it ever found out how it happened? is our mailing list as
> they
> >>> say
> >>> >>> > "out in the wind"?
> >>> >>> >
> >>> >>> > Michelle could you possibly check from the ORI side and backtrack
> >>> how
> >>> >>> > ORI came into possession of the AMSAT mailing list, was it
> >>> something
> >>> >>> > that was procured online?
> >>> >>> >
> >>> >>> > AMSAT needs to follow up on this privacy issue and report back
> >>> what it
> >>> >>> > found and any steps that were taken to prevent this from
> happening
> >>> in
> >>> >>> > the future.
> >>> >>> >
> >>> >>> >
> >>> >>> > I look forward to an answer
> >>> >>> >
> >>> >>> > 73 Kevin WA7FWF #19623
> >>> >>> >
> >>> >>> >
> >>> >>> >
> >>> >>> >
> >>> >>> >
> >>> >>> >
> >>> >>> > _______________________________________________
> >>> >>> > Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum
> >>> available
> >>> >>> > to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
> >>> >>> Opinions
> >>> >>> > expressed
> >>> >>> > are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official
> >>> views
> >>> >>> of
> >>> >>> > AMSAT-NA.
> >>> >>> > Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
> >>> >>> program!
> >>> >>> > Subscription settings:
> >>> https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
> >>> >>> >
> >>> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> >>> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum
> >>> available
> >>> >>> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
> >>> >>> Opinions expressed
> >>> >>> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official
> >>> views of
> >>> >>> AMSAT-NA.
> >>> >>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
> >>> >>> program!
> >>> >>> Subscription settings:
> >>> https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
> >>> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
> >>> Opinions expressed
> >>> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views
> of
> >>> AMSAT-NA.
> >>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
> >>> program!
> >>> Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Bruce Perens - CEO at stealth startup. I'll tell you what it is
> >> eventually :-)
> >>
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Subject: Digest Footer
>
> _______________________________________________
> Sent via amsat-bb@?????.???.
> AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons
> worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed
> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
> AMSAT-NA.
> Not an AMSAT member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
> https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol 15, Issue 247
> *****************************************
>
------------------------------
Subject: Digest Footer
_______________________________________________
Sent via amsat-bb@?????.???.
AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide
without requiring membership. Opinions expressed
are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
AMSAT-NA.
Not an AMSAT member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
------------------------------
End of AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol 15, Issue 252
*****************************************
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