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CX2SA > SATDIG 15.07.20 04:32l 706 Lines 25006 Bytes #999 (0) @ WW
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From: CX2SA@CX2SA.SAL.URY.SOAM
To : SATDIG@WW
Today's Topics:
1. Re: Slack vs. eMail -- The medium is the message (JoAnne K9JKM)
2. AO-27 (Steve Kristoff)
3. Re: Who I'm voting for (long) (Bruce Perens)
4. Re: Who I'm voting for (long) (Robert Bankston)
5. Re: AO-27 (Tanner Jones)
6. Re: AO-27 (Steve Kristoff)
7. Field Day results are due soon (Bruce)
8. Re: Slack vs. eMail -- The medium is the message
(Joseph B. Fitzgerald)
9. AMSAT Open Source Policy (Joseph Armbruster)
10. Re: AO-27 (John Brier)
11. Re: AO-27 (Tanner Jones)
12. Re: AMSAT Open Source Policy (Bruce Perens)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 17:48:47 -0500
From: JoAnne K9JKM <k9jkm@???????.???>
To: amsat-bb@?????.???
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Slack vs. eMail -- The medium is the message
Message-ID: <5F0E364F.1050500@???????.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
On 7/14/2020 5:35 PM, Michael Walker via AMSAT-BB wrote:
> There already is a Slack Satellite channel setup on the VHF-Chat
Channel and it is active.
There already is a satellite channel on the DMR Brandmeister 98006
talkgroup and it is active. How many more splinters are we in favor of?
--
73 de JoAnne K9JKM
k9jkm@?????.???
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 18:49:30 -0400
From: "Steve Kristoff" <skristof@???????.???>
To: AMSAT-BB <amsat-bb@?????.???>
Subject: [amsat-bb] AO-27
Message-ID: <31057e97a067a5e66a32f3b10fb74c52@???????.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Did AO-27 shut down in the middle of a pass over N. America in the most
recent pass a few minutes ago (or was it just me)?
I heard some folks and was ready to call, then nothing but static.
Steve AI9IN
?
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 15:53:14 -0700
From: Bruce Perens <bruce@??????.???>
To: Michelle Thompson <mountain.michelle@?????.???>
Cc: AMSAT BB <amsat-bb@?????.???>
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Who I'm voting for (long)
Message-ID:
<CAK2MWOsBA=_pycBJ57wwfETTksOt-DjwDvfWPEO_He2q+ZUHrg@????.?????.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
I am not entirely sure that it would have been copyrightable, in any case.
17 USC 102(b): In no case does copyright protection for an original work of
authorship extend to any idea, procedure, process, system, method of
operation, concept, principle, or discovery, regardless of the form in
which it is described, explained, illustrated, or embodied in such work.
Such things are the domain of patent rather than copyright. And we can
discuss another time why AMSAT should not pursue patents.
Of course, most people stick a copyright declaration on things without ever
understanding that. Don't try to take it to court.
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 23:44:03 +0000 (UTC)
From: Robert Bankston <ke4al@?????.???>
To: AMSAT-BB <amsat-bb@?????.???>
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Who I'm voting for (long)
Message-ID: <444557115.1777279.1594770243985@????.?????.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Bruce,
??
I know you only show up at election time, but AMSAT is NOT in financial
trouble.? That was the false narrative Patrick, Michelle, and you spread in
last year's election cycle.
??
Since you have been gone, please refer to AMSAT's Treasurer's Report,
published March 18, 2020.??
amsat.org/amsat-treasurers-report/
? ??
AMSAT is on a solid financial footing and headed in the right direction.?
Under the great leadership of our Officers, we have successfully reduced
costs and on track to further reduce overhead by year's end, all while
adding benefits for our members and expanding our educational outreach.? The
level of our reserves, ability to generate more revenues than expenses, and
ability to continue to grow our membership has AMSAT fiscally positioned to
accept whatever challenges and opportunities tomorrow brings.
??
If you truely want to help AMSAT, please get your facts straight and STOP
making false, defamatory statements.
??
Respectfully,
??
? Robert Bankston, CPA, KE4AL
? Treasurer
? Radio Amateur Satellite Corporation (AMSAT)
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 18:52:09 -0500
From: Tanner Jones <twjones85@?????.???>
To: Steve Kristoff <skristof@???????.???>
Cc: AMSAT-BB <amsat-bb@?????.???>
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] AO-27
Message-ID: <50B268AC-22CF-4653-BDE5-B42F6AF88D48@?????.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Steve,
Yes; it is on a 4-minute timer.
73,
Tanner
W9TWJ
Sent from my iPhone
> On Jul 14, 2020, at 6:43 PM, Steve Kristoff via AMSAT-BB
<amsat-bb@?????.???> wrote:
>
> ?
> Did AO-27 shut down in the middle of a pass over N. America in the most
recent pass a few minutes ago (or was it just me)?
> I heard some folks and was ready to call, then nothing but static.
>
> Steve AI9IN
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions
expressed
> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
AMSAT-NA.
> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
> Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 20:03:28 -0400
From: "Steve Kristoff" <skristof@???????.???>
To: AMSAT-BB <amsat-bb@?????.???>
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] AO-27
Message-ID: <fb36021452d67b19970742be395ef735@???????.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Thank you for the info, Tanner.
Just my luck to hear it at 3 min. 50 sec.! How long does it stay off before
it comes back on again? Or is there a tone or command required?
Steve AI9IN
?
----- Original Message -----
From: Tanner Jones (twjones85@?????.????
Date: 07/14/20 19:52
To: Steve Kristoff (skristof@???????.????
Cc: AMSAT-BB (amsat-bb@?????.????
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] AO-27
Steve,
Yes; it is on a 4-minute timer.
73,
Tanner
W9TWJ
Sent from my iPhone
> On Jul 14, 2020, at 6:43 PM, Steve Kristoff via AMSAT-BB
<amsat-bb@?????.???> wrote:
>
> ?
> Did AO-27 shut down in the middle of a pass over N. America in the most
recent pass a few minutes ago (or was it just me)?
> I heard some folks and was ready to call, then nothing but static.
>
> Steve AI9IN
>
> ?
>
> _______________________________________________
> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions
expressed
> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
AMSAT-NA.
> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
> Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 19:12:18 -0500
From: Bruce <kk5do@????.???>
To: "amsat-bb@?????.???? <amsat-bb@?????.???>
Subject: [amsat-bb] Field Day results are due soon
Message-ID: <6b3be9fd-b30e-dd2f-1eda-cff46cf39b23@????.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Time is drawing near. If you have not submitted your field day report,
you still have a little bit of time left. They are due to me at kk5do at
arrl.net or kk5do at amsat.org by Friday, July 17, 2020 at 11:59 PM.
Even if you only made one contact, you can still submit.
73...bruce
--
Bruce Paige, KK5DO
AMSAT Director Contests and Awards
AMSAT Board Member 2016-2020
ARRL Awards Field Checker (WAS, 5BWAS, VUCC), VE
Houston AMSAT Net - Wed 0100z on Echolink - Conference *AMSAT*
Also live streaming MP3 at http://www.amsatnet.com
Podcast at http://www.amsatnet.com/podcast.xml or iTunes
Latest satellite news on the ARRL Audio News
http://www.arrl.org
AMSAT on Twitter http://www.twitter.com/amsat
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2020 00:19:29 +0000
From: "Joseph B. Fitzgerald" <jfitzgerald@????.???.???>
To: "amsat-bb@?????.???? <amsat-bb@?????.???>
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Slack vs. eMail -- The medium is the message
Message-ID:
<DM5PR22MB0825B1C7288B206BDF7C769B87610@?????????????.????????.????.???????.??
?>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
For those that would like to develop proposals for alternatives to amsat-bb,
note that there are presently 2550 subscribers. Turning off the mailing
lists does not avoid any marginal costs - running GNU Mailman consumes only
a tiny fraction of a single server's resources.
de KM1P Joe
------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 21:09:36 -0400
From: Joseph Armbruster <josepharmbruster@?????.???>
To: Bruce Perens <bruce@??????.???>
Cc: AMSAT-BB <amsat-bb@?????.???>, "Stephen E. Belter"
<seb@??????.???>
Subject: [amsat-bb] AMSAT Open Source Policy
Message-ID:
<CADkz4c-Rkyxr0HBdNYh0vSuCHsw_snpygu7gTHOLWvX=cZNvZQ@????.?????.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Michelle / Bruce (et al),
Per your comments in "[amsat-bb] Who I'm voting for (long)", i'd like
to pull the Open Source / ITAR Conversation into a separate thread,
because I think it's a good discussion to have. It's really two
separate discussions but they do overlap now and then (and sometimes
in non-obvious ways). I have independently dealt with the DDTC and
gone through the export permitting process for defense articles,
however I have never done so for AMSAT. What is your perspective on
some of these questions:
1) How does AMSAT benefit by pursuing an open source policy?
2) What are the disadvantages of AMSAT pursuing an open source policy?
3) Say a new project was about to start, where should all the design
files, source code files, presentations, virtual machines, etc...
live?
4) What license would the items be released under (this one will be
interesting to me)?
4.a) Will the license be Free in a FreeRTOS or CGAL sortof way, where
it's free for non-commercial use?
5) How can satellite security be mitigated if the source is in the
public domain?
Those should be enough questions to kick off a conversation about it.
Also, there appears to be at least some AMSAT (related) code and such
up on the net already, it seems:
https://github.com/FaradayRF/Fox-1-MPPT
https://github.com/ac2cz/FoxTelem
https://github.com/phase4ground
It would be beneficial to hear-out what existing AMSAT engineers have
experienced:
6) Are you satisfied with the way AMSAT development currently takes
place or do you feel there is a need to change development practices?
7) Do you think AMSAT would benefit by adopting an open source policy
where all materials are placed in the public domain?
8) Can you see any landmines or pitfalls from doing so (technical,
legal, etc...)?
I wanted to ask about this, since it's mentioned constantly, but
OpenSource is a reasonably loose term that means different strokes to
different folks. So, I at least wanted to ping everyone to learn
Exactly what they believe it means and ping the existing team to
determine their thoughts.
Oh, try not to backquote the email responses, I am numbering the
questions, so you can respond to the ones you want to respond to, as
you wish.
Joseph Armbruster
KJ4JIO
------------------------------
Message: 10
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 21:10:40 -0400
From: John Brier <johnbrier@?????.???>
To: Tanner Jones <twjones85@?????.???>
Cc: AMSAT-BB <amsat-bb@?????.???>
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] AO-27
Message-ID:
<CALn0fKOKtj2+DHQq00nOFPfq7-hrJVd-Bb1brNV2d7DRtfjoKQ@????.?????.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Yes and the timer logic is explained on ao27.net. K7TAB put it into a
Google sheet and with it you can see exactly when it will be on during
a pass:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1U1bxpBHbQpwoTRx0KAf78VkJGsb2UQwUB7za8B
C7hFw/edit#gid=328598742
73, John Brier KG4AKV
On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 8:52 PM Tanner Jones via AMSAT-BB
<amsat-bb@?????.???> wrote:
>
> Steve,
>
> Yes; it is on a 4-minute timer.
>
> 73,
> Tanner
>
> W9TWJ
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Jul 14, 2020, at 6:43 PM, Steve Kristoff via AMSAT-BB
<amsat-bb@?????.???> wrote:
> >
> > ?
> > Did AO-27 shut down in the middle of a pass over N. America in the most
recent pass a few minutes ago (or was it just me)?
> > I heard some folks and was ready to call, then nothing but static.
> >
> > Steve AI9IN
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
> > to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
Opinions expressed
> > are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
AMSAT-NA.
> > Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
> > Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
> _______________________________________________
> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions
expressed
> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
AMSAT-NA.
> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
> Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
------------------------------
Message: 11
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 20:24:58 -0500
From: Tanner Jones <twjones85@?????.???>
To: John Brier <johnbrier@?????.???>
Cc: AMSAT-BB <amsat-bb@?????.???>
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] AO-27
Message-ID:
<CAEr42QrHve=yno08ptit9XSZ4_nT3WzePhAtZFLD9XrK2bBCug@????.?????.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Thanks John for providing that link. I was looking for it and couldn't find
it.
73,
Tanner
W9TWJ
On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 8:10 PM John Brier <johnbrier@?????.???> wrote:
> Yes and the timer logic is explained on ao27.net. K7TAB put it into a
> Google sheet and with it you can see exactly when it will be on during
> a pass:
>
>
>
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1U1bxpBHbQpwoTRx0KAf78VkJGsb2UQwUB7za8B
C7hFw/edit#gid=328598742
>
> 73, John Brier KG4AKV
>
> On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 8:52 PM Tanner Jones via AMSAT-BB
> <amsat-bb@?????.???> wrote:
> >
> > Steve,
> >
> > Yes; it is on a 4-minute timer.
> >
> > 73,
> > Tanner
> >
> > W9TWJ
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> > > On Jul 14, 2020, at 6:43 PM, Steve Kristoff via AMSAT-BB <
> amsat-bb@?????.???> wrote:
> > >
> > > ?
> > > Did AO-27 shut down in the middle of a pass over N. America in the
> most recent pass a few minutes ago (or was it just me)?
> > > I heard some folks and was ready to call, then nothing but static.
> > >
> > > Steve AI9IN
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
> > > to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
> Opinions expressed
> > > are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views
> of AMSAT-NA.
> > > Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
> program!
> > > Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
> > _______________________________________________
> > Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
> > to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
> Opinions expressed
> > are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
> AMSAT-NA.
> > Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
> program!
> > Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>
------------------------------
Message: 12
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 19:19:48 -0700
From: Bruce Perens <bruce@??????.???>
To: Joseph Armbruster <josepharmbruster@?????.???>
Cc: AMSAT-BB <amsat-bb@?????.???>, "Stephen E. Belter"
<seb@??????.???>
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] AMSAT Open Source Policy
Message-ID:
<CAK2MWOtoUsTb8uQTYDA6JazbfoFL+9LDhN5Z9OKrhwmkTEpf7A@????.?????.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Michelle, working for ORI, hired a lawyer to take up the ITAR matter with
the Federal Government, so she probably has some interesting information.
I have left your questions in, so that this will make sense to readers.
On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 6:08 PM Joseph Armbruster <
josepharmbruster@?????.???> wrote:
> 1) How does AMSAT benefit by pursuing an open source policy?
>
Both ITAR and EAR have a carve-out regarding published research. EAR says
that things you publish on the Internet are not subject to the EAR. ITAR is
a bit more difficult, they want you to publish it in a journal or put it in
a library. There are lots of friendly college libraries who will put a
blu-ray disk on a shelf for you. And then, you don't have to deal with ITAR
regarding any digital data. You still have ITAR problems if you wish to
ship a satellite across a national border, so it is best to fabricate it in
the nation where it will be launched. And you must never provide defense
services, not even to the USA. That means if someone you know is clearly
working on a defense project asks a question on your mailing list, you need
to explain nicely that they should get that information elsewhere because
it would get you in trouble. And then tell the government. I think
the last one I dealt with was from a defense company in Pakistan asking
about Codec2. The government says thank you for reporting this, it's
important, but doesn't tell us any more.
The whole Open Source community operates this way, and has no problem with
ITAR. They are much bigger than AMSAT. And they make AI, cryptography, and
many other things that are listed on the United States Munitions List.
2) What are the disadvantages of AMSAT pursuing an open source policy?
>
It's really difficult to see any at this late date. Michelle and I have
been to NASA meetings where it is really clear that they embrace Open
Source internally. So does SpaceX, ULA less but Tory (CEO) is very easy to
talk with. ESA is all over Open Source and there is a Librespace guy in
European Central Bank who can make introductions for us. Legally, we could
even cooperate with nations on the embargoed list, but at that point I
would want explicit permission, no need to antagonize the government just
because the law allows you to do something.
3) Say a new project was about to start, where should all the design
> files, source code files, presentations, virtual machines, etc...
> live?
>
It's really easy to put everything on Github or Gitlab, in public mode. I
wrote a script that mirrors ORI's github repositories to its own server,
and we can just burn a disc from that and put it in a library.
4) What license would the items be released under (this one will be
> interesting to me)?
>
The important thing is that everyone have the right to read. Then, you
satisfy the requirements in the ITAR and EAR carve-outs, *if *you also
publish it on the internet and make it available in a library. Libraries
often have web terminals, so I think that Internet is enough, but getting a
library to host a disc is easy. So even a Creative Commons license would be
adequate, but I suggest BSD if you want it to be available for commercial
use without getting modifications returned to the community, or GPL if you
would rather have modifications returned to the community. This is a short
explanation of Open Source licensing, and I could go into subtleties at
length.
I generally prefer that hardware designs be placed in the public domain.
Currently hardware is dubiously copyrightable due to 17 USC 102(b) and
court cases I could discuss at length too. It is not to our advantage for
courts to take our own example of attempting to copyright hardware designs
and decide that hardware designs are actually copyrightable.
4.a) Will the license be Free in a FreeRTOS or CGAL sortof way, where
> it's free for non-commercial use?
>
You can do that, since it is only necessary that it not be trade secret.
But everyone else doing this goes 100% Open Source, and we want to be able
to share their work and have them share ours. The fact that AMSAT-EA works
with Librespace and AMSAT-NA does not is suboptimal.
5) How can satellite security be mitigated if the source is in the
> public domain?
>
You mean command and control? The simplest answer is that you use
encryption to command the satellite, and you don't have to publish your
cryptographic key. It's data, not the software. However, I have a design
for terrestrial cryptographic signature that fits the FCC rules that
prohibit cryptography that *obscures the message. *Digital signature does
not obscure the message, it just authenticates it.
AMSAT used to use a secret data word and exclusive-OR to encrypt
communications.Very primitive and implemented in discrete logic chips. This
is explicitly permitted by FCC for satellites rather than terrestrial ham
radio. I would hope that we could do digital signature today.
> 6) Are you satisfied with the way AMSAT development currently takes place
or do you feel there is a need to change development practices?
My personal opinion is that a lot of the ITAR mess we are currently in
would go away if AMSAT went to a 100% Open Source policy like most of the
newer Amateur Space organizations. Unfortunately, we have engaged ITAR
attorneys who have only worked with proprietary companies, where trade
secret is necessary, and thus ITAR must apply. Open Source is new to them.
One of the most difficult jobs of a manager is managing legal counsel. Most
managers don't understand what counsel is saying OR what questions to ask.
And I have seen few managers that are equipped to push back or who even
understand that pushing back is possible. Sometimes you have to bring your
lawyer into new areas they have never explored - although that is less so
than 20 years ago when Open Source was new, and they are very likely to
give you the determinations that they made for some proprietary corporation
which are entirely wrong for your public benefit non-profit.
In my consulting business, which mainly services law firms and their
customers, I have met many attorneys who are up to speed on Open Source and
intellectual property. There are fewer attorneys who are up to speed on
Open Source and ITAR, and I would spend some time with them to discuss the
issues.
> 7) Do you think AMSAT would benefit by adopting an open source policy
> where all materials are placed in the public domain?
>
There are two "public domains". There is public domain in the sense of
copyright abandonment and patent and copyright expiration, and then ITAR
121 uses the words "public domain" to mean "public knowledge". In general
most Open Source communities do not use public domain, because the laws of
many nations, including the United States, do not actually define that an
affirmative dedication of a work to the public domain has legal meaning.
They define public domain only in the sense of copyright and patent
expiration. So, we have contrivances like the CC0 license to work around
that, which is a public domain declaration if the national law and court
likes that, but a liberal license otherwise. But most Open Source teams
would choose a very liberal license like the BSD, where the only real
requirements are that you preserve attribution (and everyone likes
attribution) and the license text. Or, you use the GPL where you want
companies to participate more, rather than just take your stuff and modify
it in private, never returning anything.
8) Can you see any landmines or pitfalls from doing so (technical,
> legal, etc...)?
>
I really put myself out there trying to attract the attention of the
Federal Government in protesting ORI's ITAR/EAR policy, and got no
interest. This may have been because of the Defense Distributed case, which
was about gun plans online, and I don't want to get into a 2nd
amendment discussion, but once the Federal Government lost that they didn't
have much to go after _us_ about.
The landmine is that if you need lawyers. If you don't do this, you also
need lawyers :-)
I wanted to ask about this, since it's mentioned constantly, but
> OpenSource is a reasonably loose term that means different strokes to
> different folks.
The Open Source Definition at Opensource.org is the one I wrote.
Thanks
Bruce
--
Bruce Perens - CEO at stealth startup. I'll tell you what it is eventually
:-)
------------------------------
Subject: Digest Footer
_______________________________________________
Sent via amsat-bb@?????.???.
AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide
without requiring membership. Opinions expressed
are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
AMSAT-NA.
Not an AMSAT member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
------------------------------
End of AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol 15, Issue 255
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