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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Open Source Satellite Work Determined to be Free of ITAR
(Zach Metzinger)
2. Re: Open Source Satellite Work Determined to be Free of ITAR
(Joseph Armbruster)
3. Re: Open Source Satellite Work Determined to be Free of ITAR
(Bruce Perens)
4. Re: Open Source Satellite Work Determined to be Free of ITAR
(Michelle Thompson)
5. Re: Open Source Satellite Work Determined to be Free of ITAR
(Rich Gopstein)
6. Re: Open Source Satellite Work Determined to be Free of ITAR
(Bruce Perens)
7. Re: Open Source Satellite Work Determined to be Free of ITAR
(Michelle Thompson)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2020 21:07:05 -0500
From: "Zach Metzinger" <zmetzing@?????.???>
To: amsat-bb <amsat-bb@?????.???>
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Open Source Satellite Work Determined to be
Free of ITAR
Message-ID: <77a658bd-e6bb-42ea-8076-14cfd893d855@???.????????.???>
Content-Type: text/plain
On Tue, Aug 18, 2020, at 8:56 PM, Bruce Perens via AMSAT-BB wrote:
> We have the actual ITAR rules to tell us about the public knowledge
> carve-out. We will receive further confirmation when we get a finding from
> Department of Commerce, and of course every time a project asks for such a
> finding there will be further confirmation. I don't think it will be
> necessary to make as few assumptions as you did in your company.
In the past, AMSAT volunteers have had a rude surprise when they were held
personally liable for violating ITAR, or so I'm told.
Will ORI indemnify volunteers who work on projects where it may, later, be
found that ITAR applies? Is that even possible for ORI to do?
If not, this makes me less interested in volunteering my skills and time to
ORI projects.
--- Zach
N0ZGO
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2020 22:47:38 -0400
From: Joseph Armbruster <josepharmbruster@?????.???>
To: Jeff Johns <jeff30339@?????.???>
Cc: AMSAT <amsat-bb@?????.???>
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Open Source Satellite Work Determined to be
Free of ITAR
Message-ID:
<CADkz4c_CiGDqaWSbkfJNGwpnJxqxiMLAccfxCz88rcrTy_BSdw@????.?????.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Jeff,
Everyone will be grateful, if there's something to be grateful for. All I
am asking for is support of the claim that this is, in fact, a milestone.
The publicly posted CJ Determination letter, leaves ALL of the critical
information out and means nothing, without context. What was in the
request, specifically? If you want to claim that this is some huge leap or
advance being made on ITAR issues for ORI, AMSAT, or whomever... all I am
asking for is a copy of the Form DS-4076, a copy of all supplemental
materials and communications with the DOS/DDTC on the matter. This way,
everyone in the community can read through and digest what was specifically
requested, in order to authenticate the claim. I made an effort to find
the information on ORIs website , but nothing came up. I apologize in
advance if I missed it...
You say no politics is involved, but I beg to differ. This could be an
attempt to say "hey -bb, look how awesome we all are!! we defeated ITAR!!",
and then pat each other on the back on the -bb, Right, Before An
Election... just to get brownie points with the community, without
providing any actual substance. A lot of BB-readers may not be
well-informed on the process and incorrectly conclude: "wow, what
progress!".
A little transparency could go a long way here.
If what is being claimed is true, then high-five, that's awesome! But,
without seeing the request and supplementary info, the determination letter
means little to nothing to me personally.
Joseph Armbruster
KJ4JIO
On Tue, Aug 18, 2020 at 9:48 PM Jeff Johns via AMSAT-BB <amsat-bb@?????.???>
wrote:
>
> >
> > Although, I am not a particular fan of ORI so-far, which is why I voted
> for
> > Hammond, Paige, Stoetzer....
> >
> > I do commend any individual or entity that is able and willing to deal
> with
> > the DOS or DDTC.
>
> Have any of the three that you voted for spent any time putting in the
> effort that Michelle has done to reach the milestone she has achieved? From
> their campaign material, all I saw were promises of an HEO satellite which
> they haven?t been able to provide during their time in office. There was
> nothing showing that they were making advances on ITAR issues which I is a
> major roadblock for future spacecraft.
>
> It seems to me that Michelle et al are pushing forward to help create new
> technologies in a new way. I?m not an EE nor an ITAR expert, but I can
> easily recognize that I have not seen anyone from within AMSAT even
> attempting to do what she has so far accomplished with this announcement.
> If someone from within AMSAT is doing so, they certainly aren?t letting the
> membership know about it.
>
> Maybe people should just be grateful that someone is willing to put in the
> work to help move things forward in an innovative manner.
>
> I was not going to turn this news into a political statement but, since
> Joseph did, I will say that for those that have yet to vote, please
> consider myself, Howie and Bob. I guarantee that we will work hard to use
> work such as this to help forward AMSAT?s mission.
>
> Jeff WE4B
> http://we4bravo.com
> _______________________________________________
> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions
> expressed
> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
> AMSAT-NA.
> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
> Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2020 20:20:39 -0700
From: Bruce Perens <bruce@??????.???>
To: Zach Metzinger <zmetzing@?????.???>
Cc: amsat-bb <amsat-bb@?????.???>
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Open Source Satellite Work Determined to be
Free of ITAR
Message-ID:
<CAK2MWOvn1cNnP1ApNdSiwdfpU=2NX2nhC9rV60SNdGj+dCNBKw@????.?????.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
On Tue, Aug 18, 2020 at 7:27 PM Zach Metzinger via AMSAT-BB <
amsat-bb@?????.???> wrote:
> In the past, AMSAT volunteers have had a rude surprise when they were held
> personally liable for violating ITAR, or so I'm told.
>
Never happened. What did happen is that one or more AMSAT developers had
intimidating interviews with the FBI. I got a direct report from one of the
developers. There has never been a court case, which would have been
necessary for any person or organization to be held liable for anything.
ORI and AMSAT are both their own corporations. When you are working on
behalf of the corporation, and under the direction and its officers, it is
the corporation's liability, not your personal liability. That and the
ability to collect tax-exempt donations are the only reasons we bother
making these organizations formal legal entities at all.
You can insure this sort of risk if the organization has so much to lose
that insurance is economical. Another choice is to accept that the
organization might go bankrupt if it was fined.
In general we face more risk from the IRS and the states that have granted
our charters, over their non-profit rules. If you are an officer of a
corporation that is not in good standing, it gets in the way when you want
to be an officer of another corporation.
Thanks
Bruce
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2020 20:23:22 -0700
From: Michelle Thompson <mountain.michelle@?????.???>
To: Joseph Armbruster <josepharmbruster@?????.???>
Cc: AMSAT BB <amsat-bb@?????.???>
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Open Source Satellite Work Determined to be
Free of ITAR
Message-ID:
<CACvjz2XJXBNXj9Wwy_B7QfsKZ0-MkHHzxhBx=OckUbMM_QZu2A@????.?????.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Yes, Joseph, it?s amazing news and It is just as good as advertised.
The result is of enormous and direct benefit to AMSAT.
AMSAT was asked to join the request. I sent a paper letter, wrote the
board, brought it up during the 2019 annual board meeting, and published an
open letter. I did all I could to enable the full participation of the one
organization that stands to benefit the most from this determination.
But, the men you voted for did not respond, at all.
It took a year of very hard work. It?s a gift to the community. It can
restore free and open international collaboration.
That?s it. There?s no tricks or gotchas. It is what it is claimed to be.
I would have done the same work and raised the same money if AMSAT had
wanted their name on it. I would be just as proud and would be saying the
same things. When work needs to be done, it needs to be done.
Information contained in CJ requests is not usually made public. The law
firm would not file it unless it was presented to the State Department as
private and confidential. This advice was because virtually all requests
are for proprietary programs and products. Sticking out in this regard, by
doing something they advised strongly against, would not work to our
advantage in any way. I want to win for open source, not die on the wrong
hill.
Additionally, the law firm does not want their work products or email
correspondence published. We will honor that. We want to work with them
again. They were fantastic, recommended by EFF, and 100% supportive of open
source.
Fortunately, *everything* that went into the request is already public
information. All our designs, details, policies, procedures, definitions,
diagrams, and code are available to the general public free of charge,
today. That?s the primary reason it succeeded. We already follow the law
with respect to public domain carve outs and publishing requirements. The
final determination shows the value of this approach.
AMSAT can do this too. There is literally no reason not to. This is the
game changer people have been waiting for.
*All* of what *anyone* will need to know to take full advantage will be
published in a set of implementation guidelines.
This is the single best risk reduction for AMSAT volunteers that exists in
US law. It is the gold standard. We have access as a community to this
result because a team of very committed and competent people made it happen
and are now going to make it easy to use.
Want to contribute to the guidelines? Participants are welcome.
-Michelle W5NYV
On Tue, Aug 18, 2020 at 18:01 Joseph Armbruster <josepharmbruster@?????.???>
wrote:
> Michelle,
>
> This is quite interesting, indeed! However, from your press release, I
> really have no clue what "Information and Software for a Digital Microwave
> Broadband Communications System for Space and Terrestrial Amateur Radio
> Use", means (in terms of the legalese, definitions and proper nouns used,
> etc...). Depending on how they were defined, the determination may or may
> not be directly relevant to AMSAT or anyone else for that matter... And
> just to be clear, i'm not trying to be a spoiler here or anything, this
> could be really amazing news, or nothing more than a null determination
> that sounds great in a headline but really means nothing. I think Everyone
> would welcome relaxed ITAR constraints on AMSAT engineers, in any
> way, shape or form... That being said, this begs the question, is the Form
> DS-4076 and all supplemental materials, along with all written
> communications with the DOS/DDTC concerning this matter, being made
> public? I think this would be absolutely necessary for anyone on the list
> to get excited about this, in any way, shape or form. I looked on the ORI
> website and couldn't find anything around Feb 2020 (per the date the
> indicated submission was made per the AUG11 reply from the DDTC).
>
> Although, I am not a particular fan of ORI so-far, which is why I voted
> for Hammond, Paige, Stoetzer....
>
> I do commend any individual or entity that is able and willing to deal
> with the DOS or DDTC. It takes a lot of time and $. At one point, my
> business helped develop parts of a research UAV for a foreign military on a
> high-altitude balloon, which included a wireless network. One export
> permit took over six months, with back-and-forths with questions and
> clarifications, questions and clarifications, more questions and
> clarifications... on and on and on... Just because they say you can
> produce Information and Software for a widget (however those are defined),
> it doesn't necessarily mean you can actually get a permit to ship the
> hardware with the software on it, anywhere. Because the 'Information and
> Software' (however defined), may not govern the hardware used. In my case,
> there were special accelerometers and gyros, that you don't purchase
> without providing a lot of information. So, no matter what software was
> written to drive them, if you shipped them out of the country without a
> permit, look out! I remember finally getting my first export permit and
> shipping label and putting it on the box and sending some hardware out. It
> was just a sticky label that went on a box, but wow, it wasn't easy.
>
> It sure would be nice if ITAR was less of an issue but the devil's really
> in the details here...
>
> Joseph Armbruster
> KJ4JIO
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 18, 2020 at 12:29 PM Michelle Thompson via AMSAT-BB <
> amsat-bb@?????.???> wrote:
>
>> Open Source Satellite Work Determined to be Free of ITAR
>>
>>
>>
https://openresearch.institute/2020/08/18/cj-determination-open-source-satelli
te-work-is-free-of-itar/
>>
>> The United States Department of State has ruled favorably on Open Research
>> Institute's commodity jurisdiction request, finding that specified
>> ?Information and Software for a Digital Microwave Broadband Communications
>> System for Space and Terrestrial Amateur Radio Use? is definitely not
>> subject to State Department jurisdiction under ITAR, the International
>> Traffic in Arms Regulations. This is an important step toward reducing the
>> burden of regulations restricting international cooperation on amateur
>> satellite projects, which have impeded engineering work by amateurs in the
>> United States for decades.
>>
>> Export regulations divide both technical information and actual hardware
>> into three categories. The most heavily restricted technologies fall under
>> ITAR, which is administered by the State Department. Technologies subject
>> to more routine restrictions fall under EAR, the Export Administration
>> Regulations, administered by the Department of Commerce. Technologies that
>> are not subject to either set of regulations are not restricted for
>> export.
>>
>> On 20 February 2020, Open Research Institute (ORI) filed a Commodity
>> Jurisdiction (CJ) Request with the US State Department, seeking to
>> establish that key technologies for amateur radio are not subject to State
>> Department jurisdiction. ?Information and Software for a Digital Microwave
>> Broadband Communications System for Space and Terrestrial Amateur Radio
>> Use? was assigned the case number CJ0003120. On 11 August 2020, the case
>> received a successful final determination: the technology is not subject
>> to
>> State Department jurisdiction. This is the best possible outcome of a CJ
>> request.
>>
>> The Final Determination letter can be found at
>>
>>
https://openresearch.institute/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2020/08/CJ-0003120-
Final-Determination-Letter.pdf
>> .
>>
>> Under this determination, the technologies are subject to the EAR. The
>> next
>> step is to submit a classification request to the Commerce Department. ORI
>> anticipates that the Commerce Department will find that these technologies
>> are unrestricted under the carve-out for open source in the EAR.
>>
>> Open Research Institute (ORI) is a non-profit research and development
>> organization which provides all of its work to the general public under
>> the
>> principles of Open Source and Open Access to Research.
>>
>> This work was accomplished by a team of dedicated and competent open
>> source
>> volunteers. The effort was initiated by Bruce Perens K6BP and lead by
>> Michelle Thompson W5NYV.
>>
>> Open Research Institute developed the ideas behind the Commodity
>> Jurisdiction request, hired Thomsen and Burke LLP (https://t-b.com/) for
>> expert legal advice, organized the revisions of the document, and invited
>> organizations and individuals with amateur satellite service interests to
>> join or support the request.
>>
>> ORI thanks Libre Space Foundation and Dr. Daniel Estevez for providing
>> their subject matter expertise and written testimony, and JAMSAT for
>> helpful encouragement and support.
>>
>> The legal costs were fully reimbursed with a generous grant from Amateur
>> Radio Digital Communications (ARDC). See
>> https://www.ampr.org/grants/grant-open-research-institute/.
>>
>> ARDC and ORI share a vision of clearly establishing open source as the
>> best
>> and safest way to accomplish technical volunteer work in amateur radio.
>> This final determination letter provides solid support for that vision.
>> The
>> determination enables the development of implementation guidelines that
>> will allow free international collaboration.
>>
>> This clears the path for a number of interesting projects facilitating new
>> methods for terrestrial and satellite communications, opening the door to
>> robust global digital amateur communications.
>>
>> Questions and inquiries to ori@????????????.?????????
>> _______________________________________________
>> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
>> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
>> Opinions expressed
>> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
>> AMSAT-NA.
>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
>> Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>>
> --
-Michelle W5NYV
"Potestatem obscuri lateris nescis."
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2020 23:24:51 -0400
From: Rich Gopstein <rich@????????????.???>
To: Bruce Perens <bruce@??????.???>
Cc: AMSAT BB <AMSAT-BB@?????.???>
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Open Source Satellite Work Determined to be
Free of ITAR
Message-ID:
<CANsNeao2OqZZ8q3t+g66GMJmexD76Hyp130eRtJT59UrC_wqOw@????.?????.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
The finding said nothing about open-source, so I don't understand how you
can claim this is a win for open-source.
BTW - I'd be thrilled if this did say something about the use of
open-source and ITAR, but it doesn't.
Rich
On Tue, Aug 18, 2020, 9:56 PM Bruce Perens <bruce@??????.???> wrote:
> We have the actual ITAR rules to tell us about the public knowledge
> carve-out. We will receive further confirmation when we get a finding from
> Department of Commerce, and of course every time a project asks for such a
> finding there will be further confirmation. I don't think it will be
> necessary to make as few assumptions as you did in your company.
>
> On Tue, Aug 18, 2020, 17:21 Rich Gopstein <rich@????????????.???> wrote:
>
>> Bruce,
>>
>> Understood, however, the finding is very narrowly scoped - it only says
>> that your system is not covered by ITAR. It doesn't say why. You believe
>> it's related to the open-source nature of your system, however the
finding *doesn't
>> say that.*
>>
>> I worked for 28+ years in a field that was regulated by the US
>> government. We on occasion also asked for findings on various things. We
>> were NEVER allowed to make assumptions about the finding. You could only
>> go by what the finding said. And in your case, it's only that your system
>> is not covered by ITAR - nothing about *why* it's not covered. Because
>> of that, you can't generalize about other systems being covered or not. It
>> may seem illogical, but that's the way the US regulatory system works.
>>
>> Rich
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Aug 18, 2020 at 6:18 PM Bruce Perens <bruce@??????.???> wrote:
>>
>>> Rich,
>>>
>>> The most important thing here is that the DoD finding is *not
>>> permission* - it is a finding that your project wasn't *ever* subject
>>> to ITAR. This is thus useful to other projects that use the same Open
>>> Source strategy.
>>>
>>> A finding is useful for risk-reduction, in that you can wave it at the
>>> court and annoying FBI folks (they have harassed AMSAT developers in the
>>> past) and you can use this one as a precedent if you are making a request
>>> for another program in which you use the same strategies.
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>> Bruce
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Aug 18, 2020 at 2:59 PM Rich Gopstein via AMSAT-BB <
>>> amsat-bb@?????.???> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Michelle,
>>>>
>>>> That's great news, but isn't that ruling only applicable to the specific
>>>> system that you asked about (digital microwave broadband...)? It's not
>>>> a
>>>> general finding that applies to anything else, right?
>>>>
>>>> Rich, KD2CQ
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Aug 18, 2020, 12:24 PM Michelle Thompson via AMSAT-BB <
>>>> amsat-bb@?????.???> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > Open Source Satellite Work Determined to be Free of ITAR
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>>
https://openresearch.institute/2020/08/18/cj-determination-open-source-satelli
te-work-is-free-of-itar/
>>>> >
>>>> > The United States Department of State has ruled favorably on Open
>>>> Research
>>>> > Institute's commodity jurisdiction request, finding that specified
>>>> > ?Information and Software for a Digital Microwave Broadband
>>>> Communications
>>>> > System for Space and Terrestrial Amateur Radio Use? is definitely not
>>>> > subject to State Department jurisdiction under ITAR, the International
>>>> > Traffic in Arms Regulations. This is an important step toward
>>>> reducing the
>>>> > burden of regulations restricting international cooperation on amateur
>>>> > satellite projects, which have impeded engineering work by amateurs
>>>> in the
>>>> > United States for decades.
>>>> >
>>>> > Export regulations divide both technical information and actual
>>>> hardware
>>>> > into three categories. The most heavily restricted technologies fall
>>>> under
>>>> > ITAR, which is administered by the State Department. Technologies
>>>> subject
>>>> > to more routine restrictions fall under EAR, the Export Administration
>>>> > Regulations, administered by the Department of Commerce. Technologies
>>>> that
>>>> > are not subject to either set of regulations are not restricted for
>>>> export.
>>>> >
>>>> > On 20 February 2020, Open Research Institute (ORI) filed a Commodity
>>>> > Jurisdiction (CJ) Request with the US State Department, seeking to
>>>> > establish that key technologies for amateur radio are not subject to
>>>> State
>>>> > Department jurisdiction. ?Information and Software for a Digital
>>>> Microwave
>>>> > Broadband Communications System for Space and Terrestrial Amateur
>>>> Radio
>>>> > Use? was assigned the case number CJ0003120. On 11 August 2020, the
>>>> case
>>>> > received a successful final determination: the technology is not
>>>> subject to
>>>> > State Department jurisdiction. This is the best possible outcome of a
>>>> CJ
>>>> > request.
>>>> >
>>>> > The Final Determination letter can be found at
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>>
https://openresearch.institute/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2020/08/CJ-0003120-
Final-Determination-Letter.pdf
>>>> > .
>>>> >
>>>> > Under this determination, the technologies are subject to the EAR.
>>>> The next
>>>> > step is to submit a classification request to the Commerce
>>>> Department. ORI
>>>> > anticipates that the Commerce Department will find that these
>>>> technologies
>>>> > are unrestricted under the carve-out for open source in the EAR.
>>>> >
>>>> > Open Research Institute (ORI) is a non-profit research and development
>>>> > organization which provides all of its work to the general public
>>>> under the
>>>> > principles of Open Source and Open Access to Research.
>>>> >
>>>> > This work was accomplished by a team of dedicated and competent open
>>>> source
>>>> > volunteers. The effort was initiated by Bruce Perens K6BP and lead by
>>>> > Michelle Thompson W5NYV.
>>>> >
>>>> > Open Research Institute developed the ideas behind the Commodity
>>>> > Jurisdiction request, hired Thomsen and Burke LLP (https://t-b.com/)
>>>> for
>>>> > expert legal advice, organized the revisions of the document, and
>>>> invited
>>>> > organizations and individuals with amateur satellite service
>>>> interests to
>>>> > join or support the request.
>>>> >
>>>> > ORI thanks Libre Space Foundation and Dr. Daniel Estevez for providing
>>>> > their subject matter expertise and written testimony, and JAMSAT for
>>>> > helpful encouragement and support.
>>>> >
>>>> > The legal costs were fully reimbursed with a generous grant from
>>>> Amateur
>>>> > Radio Digital Communications (ARDC). See
>>>> > https://www.ampr.org/grants/grant-open-research-institute/.
>>>> >
>>>> > ARDC and ORI share a vision of clearly establishing open source as
>>>> the best
>>>> > and safest way to accomplish technical volunteer work in amateur
>>>> radio.
>>>> > This final determination letter provides solid support for that
>>>> vision. The
>>>> > determination enables the development of implementation guidelines
>>>> that
>>>> > will allow free international collaboration.
>>>> >
>>>> > This clears the path for a number of interesting projects
>>>> facilitating new
>>>> > methods for terrestrial and satellite communications, opening the
>>>> door to
>>>> > robust global digital amateur communications.
>>>> >
>>>> > Questions and inquiries to ori@????????????.?????????
>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>> > Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
>>>> > to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
>>>> Opinions
>>>> > expressed
>>>> > are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views
>>>> of
>>>> > AMSAT-NA.
>>>> > Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
>>>> program!
>>>> > Subscription settings:
>>>> https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>>>> >
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
>>>> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
>>>> Opinions expressed
>>>> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views
>>>> of AMSAT-NA.
>>>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
>>>> program!
>>>> Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Bruce Perens - CEO at stealth startup. I'll tell you what it is
>>> eventually :-)
>>>
>>
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2020 20:27:27 -0700
From: Bruce Perens <bruce@??????.???>
To: Rich Gopstein <rich@????????????.???>
Cc: AMSAT BB <AMSAT-BB@?????.???>
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Open Source Satellite Work Determined to be
Free of ITAR
Message-ID:
<CAK2MWOtfPXOpdFFPHSOWPjHN7_cS_xGLyGR+Q=+hem=cdrH5tg@????.?????.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
The application made it plain that our intent was to make the entire
satellite design and software Open Source.
It is interesting to note that the government form actually asks if you
have any Open Source software in the product.
I will leave it to ORI to decide whom to show the application. I have a
copy, but no permission to disclose it.
Thanks
Bruce
On Tue, Aug 18, 2020 at 8:25 PM Rich Gopstein <rich@????????????.???> wrote:
> The finding said nothing about open-source, so I don't understand how you
> can claim this is a win for open-source.
>
> BTW - I'd be thrilled if this did say something about the use of
> open-source and ITAR, but it doesn't.
>
> Rich
>
> On Tue, Aug 18, 2020, 9:56 PM Bruce Perens <bruce@??????.???> wrote:
>
>> We have the actual ITAR rules to tell us about the public knowledge
>> carve-out. We will receive further confirmation when we get a finding from
>> Department of Commerce, and of course every time a project asks for such a
>> finding there will be further confirmation. I don't think it will be
>> necessary to make as few assumptions as you did in your company.
>>
>> On Tue, Aug 18, 2020, 17:21 Rich Gopstein <rich@????????????.???> wrote:
>>
>>> Bruce,
>>>
>>> Understood, however, the finding is very narrowly scoped - it only says
>>> that your system is not covered by ITAR. It doesn't say why. You believe
>>> it's related to the open-source nature of your system, however the
finding *doesn't
>>> say that.*
>>>
>>> I worked for 28+ years in a field that was regulated by the US
>>> government. We on occasion also asked for findings on various things. We
>>> were NEVER allowed to make assumptions about the finding. You could only
>>> go by what the finding said. And in your case, it's only that your system
>>> is not covered by ITAR - nothing about *why* it's not covered. Because
>>> of that, you can't generalize about other systems being covered or not.
It
>>> may seem illogical, but that's the way the US regulatory system works.
>>>
>>> Rich
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Aug 18, 2020 at 6:18 PM Bruce Perens <bruce@??????.???> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Rich,
>>>>
>>>> The most important thing here is that the DoD finding is *not
>>>> permission* - it is a finding that your project wasn't *ever* subject
>>>> to ITAR. This is thus useful to other projects that use the same Open
>>>> Source strategy.
>>>>
>>>> A finding is useful for risk-reduction, in that you can wave it at the
>>>> court and annoying FBI folks (they have harassed AMSAT developers in the
>>>> past) and you can use this one as a precedent if you are making a request
>>>> for another program in which you use the same strategies.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks
>>>>
>>>> Bruce
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Aug 18, 2020 at 2:59 PM Rich Gopstein via AMSAT-BB <
>>>> amsat-bb@?????.???> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Michelle,
>>>>>
>>>>> That's great news, but isn't that ruling only applicable to the
>>>>> specific
>>>>> system that you asked about (digital microwave broadband...)? It's
>>>>> not a
>>>>> general finding that applies to anything else, right?
>>>>>
>>>>> Rich, KD2CQ
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Aug 18, 2020, 12:24 PM Michelle Thompson via AMSAT-BB <
>>>>> amsat-bb@?????.???> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> > Open Source Satellite Work Determined to be Free of ITAR
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>>
https://openresearch.institute/2020/08/18/cj-determination-open-source-satelli
te-work-is-free-of-itar/
>>>>> >
>>>>> > The United States Department of State has ruled favorably on Open
>>>>> Research
>>>>> > Institute's commodity jurisdiction request, finding that specified
>>>>> > ?Information and Software for a Digital Microwave Broadband
>>>>> Communications
>>>>> > System for Space and Terrestrial Amateur Radio Use? is definitely not
>>>>> > subject to State Department jurisdiction under ITAR, the
>>>>> International
>>>>> > Traffic in Arms Regulations. This is an important step toward
>>>>> reducing the
>>>>> > burden of regulations restricting international cooperation on
>>>>> amateur
>>>>> > satellite projects, which have impeded engineering work by amateurs
>>>>> in the
>>>>> > United States for decades.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Export regulations divide both technical information and actual
>>>>> hardware
>>>>> > into three categories. The most heavily restricted technologies fall
>>>>> under
>>>>> > ITAR, which is administered by the State Department. Technologies
>>>>> subject
>>>>> > to more routine restrictions fall under EAR, the Export
>>>>> Administration
>>>>> > Regulations, administered by the Department of Commerce.
>>>>> Technologies that
>>>>> > are not subject to either set of regulations are not restricted for
>>>>> export.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > On 20 February 2020, Open Research Institute (ORI) filed a Commodity
>>>>> > Jurisdiction (CJ) Request with the US State Department, seeking to
>>>>> > establish that key technologies for amateur radio are not subject to
>>>>> State
>>>>> > Department jurisdiction. ?Information and Software for a Digital
>>>>> Microwave
>>>>> > Broadband Communications System for Space and Terrestrial Amateur
>>>>> Radio
>>>>> > Use? was assigned the case number CJ0003120. On 11 August 2020, the
>>>>> case
>>>>> > received a successful final determination: the technology is not
>>>>> subject to
>>>>> > State Department jurisdiction. This is the best possible outcome of
>>>>> a CJ
>>>>> > request.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > The Final Determination letter can be found at
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>>
https://openresearch.institute/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2020/08/CJ-0003120-
Final-Determination-Letter.pdf
>>>>> > .
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Under this determination, the technologies are subject to the EAR.
>>>>> The next
>>>>> > step is to submit a classification request to the Commerce
>>>>> Department. ORI
>>>>> > anticipates that the Commerce Department will find that these
>>>>> technologies
>>>>> > are unrestricted under the carve-out for open source in the EAR.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Open Research Institute (ORI) is a non-profit research and
>>>>> development
>>>>> > organization which provides all of its work to the general public
>>>>> under the
>>>>> > principles of Open Source and Open Access to Research.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > This work was accomplished by a team of dedicated and competent open
>>>>> source
>>>>> > volunteers. The effort was initiated by Bruce Perens K6BP and lead by
>>>>> > Michelle Thompson W5NYV.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Open Research Institute developed the ideas behind the Commodity
>>>>> > Jurisdiction request, hired Thomsen and Burke LLP (https://t-b.com/)
>>>>> for
>>>>> > expert legal advice, organized the revisions of the document, and
>>>>> invited
>>>>> > organizations and individuals with amateur satellite service
>>>>> interests to
>>>>> > join or support the request.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > ORI thanks Libre Space Foundation and Dr. Daniel Estevez for
>>>>> providing
>>>>> > their subject matter expertise and written testimony, and JAMSAT for
>>>>> > helpful encouragement and support.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > The legal costs were fully reimbursed with a generous grant from
>>>>> Amateur
>>>>> > Radio Digital Communications (ARDC). See
>>>>> > https://www.ampr.org/grants/grant-open-research-institute/.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > ARDC and ORI share a vision of clearly establishing open source as
>>>>> the best
>>>>> > and safest way to accomplish technical volunteer work in amateur
>>>>> radio.
>>>>> > This final determination letter provides solid support for that
>>>>> vision. The
>>>>> > determination enables the development of implementation guidelines
>>>>> that
>>>>> > will allow free international collaboration.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > This clears the path for a number of interesting projects
>>>>> facilitating new
>>>>> > methods for terrestrial and satellite communications, opening the
>>>>> door to
>>>>> > robust global digital amateur communications.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Questions and inquiries to ori@????????????.?????????
>>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>>> > Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum
>>>>> available
>>>>> > to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
>>>>> Opinions
>>>>> > expressed
>>>>> > are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official
>>>>> views of
>>>>> > AMSAT-NA.
>>>>> > Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
>>>>> program!
>>>>> > Subscription settings:
>>>>> https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>>>>> >
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
>>>>> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
>>>>> Opinions expressed
>>>>> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views
>>>>> of AMSAT-NA.
>>>>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
>>>>> program!
>>>>> Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Bruce Perens - CEO at stealth startup. I'll tell you what it is
>>>> eventually :-)
>>>>
>>>
--
Bruce Perens - CEO at stealth startup. I'll tell you what it is eventually
:-)
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2020 21:07:51 -0700
From: Michelle Thompson <mountain.michelle@?????.???>
To: Bruce Perens <bruce@??????.???>
Cc: AMSAT BB <AMSAT-BB@?????.???>
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Open Source Satellite Work Determined to be
Free of ITAR
Message-ID:
<CACvjz2WbHT7r6wona4KkHyzCyGU0202L6yWATJM96o6y=Uf1nA@????.?????.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
I think a recorded talk about the process, the form, and the repercussions
would be of interest.
Articles have been requested too.
I think we can get things described fully in relatively short order.
It is a real pleasure to be able to make this announcement. We were
prepared for a lengthy, difficult, and expensive appeals process.
The entire application hinged on the public domain carve out use. As
mentioned before, the approach was based on the policies Bruce authored.
I don?t want to dump the application on the internet without a clear ok
from the firm. I?ll ask (again).
Priority is enabling use of the result, so I am going to go work on that.
I?m very happy about this. Being able to contribute directly to enormous
forward progress on such a serious problem for AMSAT has been a highlight.
Ready for the next tough challenge so if you know of any send them my way :D
Michelle W5NYV
On Tue, Aug 18, 2020 at 20:27 Bruce Perens <bruce@??????.???> wrote:
> The application made it plain that our intent was to make the entire
> satellite design and software Open Source.
>
> It is interesting to note that the government form actually asks if you
> have any Open Source software in the product.
>
> I will leave it to ORI to decide whom to show the application. I have a
> copy, but no permission to disclose it.
>
> Thanks
>
> Bruce
>
> On Tue, Aug 18, 2020 at 8:25 PM Rich Gopstein <rich@????????????.???>
> wrote:
>
>> The finding said nothing about open-source, so I don't understand how you
>> can claim this is a win for open-source.
>>
>> BTW - I'd be thrilled if this did say something about the use of
>> open-source and ITAR, but it doesn't.
>>
>> Rich
>>
>> On Tue, Aug 18, 2020, 9:56 PM Bruce Perens <bruce@??????.???> wrote:
>>
>>> We have the actual ITAR rules to tell us about the public knowledge
>>> carve-out. We will receive further confirmation when we get a finding from
>>> Department of Commerce, and of course every time a project asks for such a
>>> finding there will be further confirmation. I don't think it will be
>>> necessary to make as few assumptions as you did in your company.
>>>
>>> On Tue, Aug 18, 2020, 17:21 Rich Gopstein <rich@????????????.???> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Bruce,
>>>>
>>>> Understood, however, the finding is very narrowly scoped - it only says
>>>> that your system is not covered by ITAR. It doesn't say why. You
believe
>>>> it's related to the open-source nature of your system, however the
finding *doesn't
>>>> say that.*
>>>>
>>>> I worked for 28+ years in a field that was regulated by the US
>>>> government. We on occasion also asked for findings on various things.
We
>>>> were NEVER allowed to make assumptions about the finding. You could only
>>>> go by what the finding said. And in your case, it's only that your
system
>>>> is not covered by ITAR - nothing about *why* it's not covered. Because
>>>> of that, you can't generalize about other systems being covered or not.
It
>>>> may seem illogical, but that's the way the US regulatory system works.
>>>>
>>>> Rich
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Aug 18, 2020 at 6:18 PM Bruce Perens <bruce@??????.???> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Rich,
>>>>>
>>>>> The most important thing here is that the DoD finding is *not
>>>>> permission* - it is a finding that your project wasn't *ever* subject
>>>>> to ITAR. This is thus useful to other projects that use the same Open
>>>>> Source strategy.
>>>>>
>>>>> A finding is useful for risk-reduction, in that you can wave it at the
>>>>> court and annoying FBI folks (they have harassed AMSAT developers in the
>>>>> past) and you can use this one as a precedent if you are making a
request
>>>>> for another program in which you use the same strategies.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>
>>>>> Bruce
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Aug 18, 2020 at 2:59 PM Rich Gopstein via AMSAT-BB <
>>>>> amsat-bb@?????.???> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Michelle,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That's great news, but isn't that ruling only applicable to the
>>>>>> specific
>>>>>> system that you asked about (digital microwave broadband...)? It's
>>>>>> not a
>>>>>> general finding that applies to anything else, right?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Rich, KD2CQ
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, Aug 18, 2020, 12:24 PM Michelle Thompson via AMSAT-BB <
>>>>>> amsat-bb@?????.???> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> > Open Source Satellite Work Determined to be Free of ITAR
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>>
https://openresearch.institute/2020/08/18/cj-determination-open-source-satelli
te-work-is-free-of-itar/
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > The United States Department of State has ruled favorably on Open
>>>>>> Research
>>>>>> > Institute's commodity jurisdiction request, finding that specified
>>>>>> > ?Information and Software for a Digital Microwave Broadband
>>>>>> Communications
>>>>>> > System for Space and Terrestrial Amateur Radio Use? is definitely
>>>>>> not
>>>>>> > subject to State Department jurisdiction under ITAR, the
>>>>>> International
>>>>>> > Traffic in Arms Regulations. This is an important step toward
>>>>>> reducing the
>>>>>> > burden of regulations restricting international cooperation on
>>>>>> amateur
>>>>>> > satellite projects, which have impeded engineering work by amateurs
>>>>>> in the
>>>>>> > United States for decades.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Export regulations divide both technical information and actual
>>>>>> hardware
>>>>>> > into three categories. The most heavily restricted technologies
>>>>>> fall under
>>>>>> > ITAR, which is administered by the State Department. Technologies
>>>>>> subject
>>>>>> > to more routine restrictions fall under EAR, the Export
>>>>>> Administration
>>>>>> > Regulations, administered by the Department of Commerce.
>>>>>> Technologies that
>>>>>> > are not subject to either set of regulations are not restricted for
>>>>>> export.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > On 20 February 2020, Open Research Institute (ORI) filed a Commodity
>>>>>> > Jurisdiction (CJ) Request with the US State Department, seeking to
>>>>>> > establish that key technologies for amateur radio are not subject
>>>>>> to State
>>>>>> > Department jurisdiction. ?Information and Software for a Digital
>>>>>> Microwave
>>>>>> > Broadband Communications System for Space and Terrestrial Amateur
>>>>>> Radio
>>>>>> > Use? was assigned the case number CJ0003120. On 11 August 2020, the
>>>>>> case
>>>>>> > received a successful final determination: the technology is not
>>>>>> subject to
>>>>>> > State Department jurisdiction. This is the best possible outcome of
>>>>>> a CJ
>>>>>> > request.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > The Final Determination letter can be found at
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>>
https://openresearch.institute/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2020/08/CJ-0003120-
Final-Determination-Letter.pdf
>>>>>> > .
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Under this determination, the technologies are subject to the EAR.
>>>>>> The next
>>>>>> > step is to submit a classification request to the Commerce
>>>>>> Department. ORI
>>>>>> > anticipates that the Commerce Department will find that these
>>>>>> technologies
>>>>>> > are unrestricted under the carve-out for open source in the EAR.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Open Research Institute (ORI) is a non-profit research and
>>>>>> development
>>>>>> > organization which provides all of its work to the general public
>>>>>> under the
>>>>>> > principles of Open Source and Open Access to Research.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > This work was accomplished by a team of dedicated and competent
>>>>>> open source
>>>>>> > volunteers. The effort was initiated by Bruce Perens K6BP and lead
>>>>>> by
>>>>>> > Michelle Thompson W5NYV.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Open Research Institute developed the ideas behind the Commodity
>>>>>> > Jurisdiction request, hired Thomsen and Burke LLP (https://t-b.com/)
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> > expert legal advice, organized the revisions of the document, and
>>>>>> invited
>>>>>> > organizations and individuals with amateur satellite service
>>>>>> interests to
>>>>>> > join or support the request.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > ORI thanks Libre Space Foundation and Dr. Daniel Estevez for
>>>>>> providing
>>>>>> > their subject matter expertise and written testimony, and JAMSAT for
>>>>>> > helpful encouragement and support.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > The legal costs were fully reimbursed with a generous grant from
>>>>>> Amateur
>>>>>> > Radio Digital Communications (ARDC). See
>>>>>> > https://www.ampr.org/grants/grant-open-research-institute/.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > ARDC and ORI share a vision of clearly establishing open source as
>>>>>> the best
>>>>>> > and safest way to accomplish technical volunteer work in amateur
>>>>>> radio.
>>>>>> > This final determination letter provides solid support for that
>>>>>> vision. The
>>>>>> > determination enables the development of implementation guidelines
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> > will allow free international collaboration.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > This clears the path for a number of interesting projects
>>>>>> facilitating new
>>>>>> > methods for terrestrial and satellite communications, opening the
>>>>>> door to
>>>>>> > robust global digital amateur communications.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Questions and inquiries to ori@????????????.?????????
>>>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>>>> > Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum
>>>>>> available
>>>>>> > to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
>>>>>> Opinions
>>>>>> > expressed
>>>>>> > are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official
>>>>>> views of
>>>>>> > AMSAT-NA.
>>>>>> > Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
>>>>>> program!
>>>>>> > Subscription settings:
>>>>>> https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
>>>>>> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
>>>>>> Opinions expressed
>>>>>> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views
>>>>>> of AMSAT-NA.
>>>>>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
>>>>>> program!
>>>>>> Subscription settings:
>>>>>> https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Bruce Perens - CEO at stealth startup. I'll tell you what it is
>>>>> eventually :-)
>>>>>
>>>>
>
> --
> Bruce Perens - CEO at stealth startup. I'll tell you what it is eventually
> :-)
>
--
-Michelle W5NYV
"Potestatem obscuri lateris nescis."
------------------------------
Subject: Digest Footer
_______________________________________________
Sent via amsat-bb@?????.???.
AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide
without requiring membership. Opinions expressed
are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
AMSAT-NA.
Not an AMSAT member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
------------------------------
End of AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol 15, Issue 340
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