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CX2SA > SATDIG 20.08.20 02:50l 1218 Lines 48433 Bytes #999 (0) @ WW
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From: CX2SA@CX2SA.SAL.URY.SOAM
To : SATDIG@WW
Today's Topics:
1. Ridiculous reactions (Michael Tondee)
2. Some benefits of open source sats that I envision (John Brier)
3. Re: Transparency and Double Standards (David Swanson)
4. Re: Transparency and Double Standards (Joseph Armbruster)
5. Re: Open Source Satellite Work Determined to be Free of ITAR
(Steve Kristoff)
6. Re: Transparency and Double Standards (Joseph Armbruster)
7. Re: Transparency and Double Standards (Bruce Perens)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2020 17:08:28 -0400
From: Michael Tondee <mat_62@???????.???>
To: amsat-bb@?????.???? mountain.michelle@?????.???? bruce@??????.????
jeff30339@?????.???
Subject: [amsat-bb] Ridiculous reactions
Message-ID: <c525805c-19bf-f9c6-43e4-0bcf69f4bb77@???????.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
We have potentially great news about ITAR and all certain people can
think to do is try to tear it down. Could it be that some people don't
want AMSAT to be out from under ITAR because it removes a convenient
excuse for the lack of ability to get anything consequential done
towards launching an HEO satellite? The? premature negative reactions
are ridiculous.
73,
Michael, W4HIJ
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2020 17:20:29 -0400
From: John Brier <johnbrier@?????.???>
To: AMSAT BB <amsat-bb@?????.???>
Subject: [amsat-bb] Some benefits of open source sats that I envision
Message-ID:
<CALn0fKP3oi0VEcpr2vSgnQ+pvmWk02Rw0eotoa-jgFx7hF+_Xw@????.?????.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
I am excited to hear about the possibility of ITAR not restricting
open source satellite work.
You can see a similar excitement in how AMSAT talks about the Linear
Transponder Module and the possibility of seeing that module in
multiple unique university satellites.
Just imagine if instead of having to hand hold every university who
was interested in the AMSAT LTM in their efforts to use the module, if
instead its design was published online for free for anyone to use.
Imagine people launching sats using it you didn't even know were going
to be launched. Imagine they found issues or ways to improve it, and
just submitted design changes back to you for free. Not to mention you
get to see and use your technology in additional sats you didn't have
the funds to build or launch.
It's hard to know what went wrong with AO-95, but imagine if the Fox
designs were open source and others were launching Fox sats and made
small changes to the antenna design, or other suspect components, to
see if it avoided that issue. You could perhaps figure out what caused
the issue over time, not to mention, have a lot more sats to operate.
I'm also envisioning AMSAT-NA working with all the other AMSAT groups
around the world, and many different universities around the world, on
the best sat designs for different categories. You could build the
most dependable possible FM sats, linear sats, and more complex sats
like the GOLF project describes.
If it is at all possible to get around ITAR so sats can be developed
the open source way, I think it would be wildly beneficial.
73, John Brier KG4AKV
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2020 16:22:11 -0500
From: David Swanson <dave@?????????????.???>
Cc: Amsat - BBs <amsat-bb@?????.???>
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Transparency and Double Standards
Message-ID:
<CANq+eyWLG=z=EML26x9+DiXgyO-re_EupN+R+u=OqGQLk0xVBw@????.?????.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
No matter how many times the slate party repeats "The sky is green" it's
still not going to be true. Please stop. The slate party has called for an
open and transparent AMSAT, consequences (like torquing off a launch
provider or a government agency) be damned. When presented with the chance
actually *be* open and transparent themselves - you know, to walk the talk
- the slate party has refused to do so. This is a double standard, and the
height of hypocrisy. I stand by my assessment that ORI has produced nothing
of interest to operators, if I'm wrong - then please provide the list of
satellites ORI has launched... I'll wait. The only thing I care about AMSAT
doing is keeping Amateur Radio in Space, and that's the only reason I'm a
member, and it's the stated objective of this organization. ORI can do
whatever ORI wants, I'm not a member, and don't care what anyone
volunteering for that organization does, but I expect volunteers working in
AMSAT to be working towards that mission, not working towards
something unrelated to keeping amateur radio in space.
In case you've missed it in the past, I'm a proud part-owner in an ITAR
registered business - as we manufacture a small number of items for export
that are clearly munitions. I'm here to tell you I won't be sharing
anything we've paid lawyers to produce for us, as it's a key part of our
intellectual property and contains information about our compliance. I have
absolutely no expectation that Michelle will be sharing their advisory
opinion, request or response. If they did, then I would say they have some
extremely poor lawyers advising them.
-Dave, KG5CCI
On Wed, Aug 19, 2020 at 3:46 PM John Brier <johnbrier@?????.???> wrote:
> This is not a double standard or a lack of transparency. Their lawyer
> requested they not release certain information and they are doing as
> requested.
>
> Open source software companies work with security embargos on
> vulnerabilities, and NDAs on prerelease hardware all the time. They keep
> specific things secret for as long as they have to and then open it up as
> soon as they can.
>
> Michelle even said she would double check with the lawyers to see if they
> can release it. She is also looking into whether there are examples of this
> form being published online by other orgs. She is not saying flat out no
> because I have a right to.
>
> 73, John Brier KG4AKV
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 19, 2020, 16:21 David Swanson via AMSAT-BB <amsat-bb@?????.???>
> wrote:
>
>> I'm sorry - but this thread is absolutely hilarious, and the last reply by
>> Mr. Perens is the cherry on top of the stupidity cake.
>>
>> Michelle and her comrades have spouted all about transparency and openness
>> for the past year, but when they're presented with an opportunity to be
>> transparent and open with their competing organizations they play the 'Our
>> Lawyers said not to share card'. When presented with their hypocrisy they
>> retreat to the completely expected position of politicians everywhere by
>> claiming that while AMSAT should make everything open, ORI has a right to
>> keep things secret, because what they're doing is special and different.
>> And then - amazingly - still have the audacity to somehow justify their
>> position by claiming AMSAT isn't launching satellites? Unless I'm
>> mistaken,
>> ORI/Perens Inc. have launched precisely *ZERO* birds ever - AMSAT has put
>> 4
>> birds in orbit since I've been a member, and has provided parts and
>> guidance to countless 3rd parties to launch their own birds. They have a
>> realistic plan to get more birds into the orbits operators want despite
>> not
>> being part of the in-crowd... I have complete faith that they will
>> deliver,
>> because they already have. ORI has delivered jack all except promises and
>> chaos.
>>
>> Maybe - just MAYBE - this thread lays bare what the community will be
>> getting with "the slate" of candidates. A whole bunch of "Thee, but not
>> for
>> me" type of leadership, and a whole bunch of empty guarantees.
>>
>> -Dave, KG5CCI
>>
>> On Wed, Aug 19, 2020 at 2:17 PM Bruce Perens via AMSAT-BB <
>> amsat-bb@?????.???> wrote:
>>
>> > Sorry you feel that way. The unfortunate fact is that AMSAT has already
>> > been judged by its outside funding organizations, and is going to have a
>> > hard time surmounting that without a major change in leadership. It
>> isn't
>> > going to matter much for you to stick with leadership who can't can't
>> build
>> > and launch enough satellites. That is what it is coming to. Fixing that
>> is
>> > the only agenda.
>> >
>> > On Wed, Aug 19, 2020, 11:18 AM E.Mike McCardel via AMSAT-BB <
>> > amsat-bb@?????.???> wrote:
>> >
>> > > My final word. At least some people on your agendized team, for the
>> take
>> > > over of AMSAT, I hold or have held in high respect. That is, at least
>> > until
>> > > they allowed themselves to be associated with this travesty of ego. I
>> now
>> > > question their judgement And motivation. That?s on you. TEAM politics
>> > isn?t
>> > > what this is about. Character, track record, and how I have seen
>> > candidates
>> > > treat Me and others is how I will vote.
>> > >
>> > > I am highly disappointed that this has turned into a we / they
>> campaign.
>> > > The organization is better than that. Regardless of the outcome of
>> this
>> > > election, I judge AMSAT and it reputation will be damaged moving
>> forward.
>> > >
>> > > EMike, AA8EM
>> > >
>> > > EMike McCardel, AA8EM
>> > > Past Senior Editor AMSAT News Service
>> > > Past AMSAT-NA VP Educational Relations
>> > > Former ARRL, Ohio Section, Affiliated Club Coordinator
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > > On Aug 19, 2020, at 1:11 PM, Michelle Thompson <
>> > > mountain.michelle@?????.???> wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > ?
>> > > > You might have missed the part where all of the information in this
>> > > particular CJ request is already publicly available. It's already
>> > > transparent.
>> > > >
>> > > > The submitted form itself is not usually published. That's the only
>> > > restriction we are talking about.
>> > > >
>> > > > This is fundamentally different from refusing to allow Directors
>> access
>> > > to corporate records unless they sign NDAs, then showing up without
>> the
>> > > actual NDAs, then continuing to deny access to records and
>> communications
>> > > after everyone signed a blank form that purported to be a signature
>> form
>> > > for these alleged NDAs. Some of which have yet to be produced and you
>> as
>> > a
>> > > member are not allowed to know about.
>> > > >
>> > > > Your attack is off base and inaccurate. I'm sorry you feel the way
>> you
>> > > do. This work means that things can get dramatically better for the
>> > > organization in highly visible and measurable ways.
>> > > >
>> > > > -Michelle W5NYV
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >> On Wed, Aug 19, 2020 at 9:33 AM E.Mike McCardel via AMSAT-BB <
>> > > amsat-bb@?????.???> wrote:
>> > > >> Just an observation. Among all of this talk, during the past BOoD
>> > > election
>> > > >> cycle, about Transparency, I find it amazing that the excuse of the
>> > > Lawyers
>> > > >> or others don't think it wise to disclose information can even be
>> an
>> > > >> argument.
>> > > >>
>> > > >> Michelle Wrote:
>> > > >> "Unless, of course, this Information contained in CJ requests is
>> not
>> > > >> usually made public. The law firm would not file it unless it was
>> > > presented
>> > > >> to the State Department as private and confidential. This advice
>> was
>> > > >> because virtually all requests are for proprietary programs and
>> > > products.
>> > > >> Sticking out in this regard, by doing something they advised
>> strongly
>> > > >> against, would not work to our
>> > > >> advantage in any way. I want to win for open source, not die on the
>> > > wrong
>> > > >> hill. as an admission that NDA's are indeed important and not just
>> > > >> convenient."
>> > > >>
>> > > >> Is this not the very essence of Non-Disclosure Agreements? Without
>> the
>> > > >> transparency which seems to be lacking here this comes across as a
>> > > simple
>> > > >> political stunt. Enough already.
>> > > >>
>> > > >> I am not voting for any TEAM, I'm putting my trust in individuals
>> > whom I
>> > > >> respect and trust and have no agenda other than serving AMSAT to
>> keep
>> > > >> amateur radio in space.
>> > > >>
>> > > >> EMike, AA8EM
>> > > >>
>> > > >>
>> > > >>
>> > > >> E. Michael McCardel, AA8EM, former KC8YLD
>> > > >> Former Senior Editor for AMSAT News Service,
>> > > >> Past VP Educational Relations for AMSAT-NA
>> > > >> Former Ohio Section Affiliated Club Coordinator
>> > > >> _______________________________________________
>> > > >> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum
>> available
>> > > >> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
>> > > Opinions expressed
>> > > >> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official
>> views
>> > > of AMSAT-NA.
>> > > >> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
>> > > program!
>> > > >> Subscription settings:
>> > https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>> > > _______________________________________________
>> > > Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
>> > > to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
>> > Opinions
>> > > expressed
>> > > are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views
>> of
>> > > AMSAT-NA.
>> > > Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
>> > program!
>> > > Subscription settings:
>> https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>> > >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
>> > to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
>> Opinions
>> > expressed
>> > are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
>> > AMSAT-NA.
>> > Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
>> program!
>> > Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>> >
>> _______________________________________________
>> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
>> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
>> Opinions expressed
>> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
>> AMSAT-NA.
>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
>> Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>>
>
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2020 17:38:13 -0400
From: Joseph Armbruster <josepharmbruster@?????.???>
To: Michelle Thompson <mountain.michelle@?????.???>
Cc: Amsat - BBs <amsat-bb@?????.???>
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Transparency and Double Standards
Message-ID:
<CADkz4c-N-OgGVEhrpFNVr7=3ESz4GtnPGBVRVQW=9X8_7wqzCw@????.?????.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Michelle,
There's no attack (though, high five on playing the victim card)
When you say "All of the information contained in the request is already
public."... that's directly misleading everyone on the -bb and you know
it. Because you did NOT release the submission to the DDTC, which contains
all relevant information. So, right now, noone on the -bb actually Knows
what was evaluated.
All your team has to do is, Reply-all, attach, select, send! It's as easy
as that... Can you pull that off for us?
Joseph Armbruster
KJ4JIO
On Wed, Aug 19, 2020 at 5:25 PM Michelle Thompson via AMSAT-BB <
amsat-bb@?????.???> wrote:
> All of the information contained in the request is already public.
>
> I've presented my satellite credentials, both amateur and professional, in
> the past, several times. I've explained what I've contributed to in orbit.
> We have volunteers with a wide variety of commercial satellite success
> across three continents. We have a lot of experienced people. Your
> description is completely inaccurate and unfair. I'm not sure why you keep
> doing this given the proven track record of the active volunteer corps of
> ORI.
>
> You know, there's a lot of AMSAT/ORI volunteers. Attacking ORI is attacking
> AMSAT, since it's an AMSAT Member Society. Attacking ORI is attacking AMSAT
> volunteers, given the large amount of crossover. Please stop.
>
> The submission packet itself for a CJ Request is not normally made public.
> I've agreed to try and get it published. As far as I can tell, this would
> be unique.
>
> But, hey, the successful CJ Request result was unique, so why not. I might
> be able to pull it off.
>
> -Michelle W5NYV
>
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 19, 2020 at 1:21 PM David Swanson via AMSAT-BB <
> amsat-bb@?????.???> wrote:
>
> > I'm sorry - but this thread is absolutely hilarious, and the last reply
> by
> > Mr. Perens is the cherry on top of the stupidity cake.
> >
> > Michelle and her comrades have spouted all about transparency and
> openness
> > for the past year, but when they're presented with an opportunity to be
> > transparent and open with their competing organizations they play the
> 'Our
> > Lawyers said not to share card'. When presented with their hypocrisy they
> > retreat to the completely expected position of politicians everywhere by
> > claiming that while AMSAT should make everything open, ORI has a right to
> > keep things secret, because what they're doing is special and different.
> > And then - amazingly - still have the audacity to somehow justify their
> > position by claiming AMSAT isn't launching satellites? Unless I'm
> mistaken,
> > ORI/Perens Inc. have launched precisely *ZERO* birds ever - AMSAT has
> put 4
> > birds in orbit since I've been a member, and has provided parts and
> > guidance to countless 3rd parties to launch their own birds. They have a
> > realistic plan to get more birds into the orbits operators want despite
> not
> > being part of the in-crowd... I have complete faith that they will
> deliver,
> > because they already have. ORI has delivered jack all except promises and
> > chaos.
> >
> > Maybe - just MAYBE - this thread lays bare what the community will be
> > getting with "the slate" of candidates. A whole bunch of "Thee, but not
> for
> > me" type of leadership, and a whole bunch of empty guarantees.
> >
> > -Dave, KG5CCI
> >
> > On Wed, Aug 19, 2020 at 2:17 PM Bruce Perens via AMSAT-BB <
> > amsat-bb@?????.???> wrote:
> >
> > > Sorry you feel that way. The unfortunate fact is that AMSAT has already
> > > been judged by its outside funding organizations, and is going to have
> a
> > > hard time surmounting that without a major change in leadership. It
> isn't
> > > going to matter much for you to stick with leadership who can't can't
> > build
> > > and launch enough satellites. That is what it is coming to. Fixing that
> > is
> > > the only agenda.
> > >
> > > On Wed, Aug 19, 2020, 11:18 AM E.Mike McCardel via AMSAT-BB <
> > > amsat-bb@?????.???> wrote:
> > >
> > > > My final word. At least some people on your agendized team, for the
> > take
> > > > over of AMSAT, I hold or have held in high respect. That is, at least
> > > until
> > > > they allowed themselves to be associated with this travesty of ego. I
> > now
> > > > question their judgement And motivation. That?s on you. TEAM politics
> > > isn?t
> > > > what this is about. Character, track record, and how I have seen
> > > candidates
> > > > treat Me and others is how I will vote.
> > > >
> > > > I am highly disappointed that this has turned into a we / they
> > campaign.
> > > > The organization is better than that. Regardless of the outcome of
> this
> > > > election, I judge AMSAT and it reputation will be damaged moving
> > forward.
> > > >
> > > > EMike, AA8EM
> > > >
> > > > EMike McCardel, AA8EM
> > > > Past Senior Editor AMSAT News Service
> > > > Past AMSAT-NA VP Educational Relations
> > > > Former ARRL, Ohio Section, Affiliated Club Coordinator
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > On Aug 19, 2020, at 1:11 PM, Michelle Thompson <
> > > > mountain.michelle@?????.???> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > ?
> > > > > You might have missed the part where all of the information in this
> > > > particular CJ request is already publicly available. It's already
> > > > transparent.
> > > > >
> > > > > The submitted form itself is not usually published. That's the only
> > > > restriction we are talking about.
> > > > >
> > > > > This is fundamentally different from refusing to allow Directors
> > access
> > > > to corporate records unless they sign NDAs, then showing up without
> the
> > > > actual NDAs, then continuing to deny access to records and
> > communications
> > > > after everyone signed a blank form that purported to be a signature
> > form
> > > > for these alleged NDAs. Some of which have yet to be produced and you
> > as
> > > a
> > > > member are not allowed to know about.
> > > > >
> > > > > Your attack is off base and inaccurate. I'm sorry you feel the way
> > you
> > > > do. This work means that things can get dramatically better for the
> > > > organization in highly visible and measurable ways.
> > > > >
> > > > > -Michelle W5NYV
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >> On Wed, Aug 19, 2020 at 9:33 AM E.Mike McCardel via AMSAT-BB <
> > > > amsat-bb@?????.???> wrote:
> > > > >> Just an observation. Among all of this talk, during the past BOoD
> > > > election
> > > > >> cycle, about Transparency, I find it amazing that the excuse of
> the
> > > > Lawyers
> > > > >> or others don't think it wise to disclose information can even be
> an
> > > > >> argument.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Michelle Wrote:
> > > > >> "Unless, of course, this Information contained in CJ requests is
> > not
> > > > >> usually made public. The law firm would not file it unless it was
> > > > presented
> > > > >> to the State Department as private and confidential. This advice
> was
> > > > >> because virtually all requests are for proprietary programs and
> > > > products.
> > > > >> Sticking out in this regard, by doing something they advised
> > strongly
> > > > >> against, would not work to our
> > > > >> advantage in any way. I want to win for open source, not die on
> the
> > > > wrong
> > > > >> hill. as an admission that NDA's are indeed important and not
> just
> > > > >> convenient."
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Is this not the very essence of Non-Disclosure Agreements? Without
> > the
> > > > >> transparency which seems to be lacking here this comes across as a
> > > > simple
> > > > >> political stunt. Enough already.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> I am not voting for any TEAM, I'm putting my trust in individuals
> > > whom I
> > > > >> respect and trust and have no agenda other than serving AMSAT to
> > keep
> > > > >> amateur radio in space.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> EMike, AA8EM
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> E. Michael McCardel, AA8EM, former KC8YLD
> > > > >> Former Senior Editor for AMSAT News Service,
> > > > >> Past VP Educational Relations for AMSAT-NA
> > > > >> Former Ohio Section Affiliated Club Coordinator
> > > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > > >> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum
> > available
> > > > >> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
> > > > Opinions expressed
> > > > >> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official
> > views
> > > > of AMSAT-NA.
> > > > >> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
> > > > program!
> > > > >> Subscription settings:
> > > https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum
> available
> > > > to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
> > > Opinions
> > > > expressed
> > > > are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views
> > of
> > > > AMSAT-NA.
> > > > Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
> > > program!
> > > > Subscription settings:
> https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
> > > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
> > > to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
> > Opinions
> > > expressed
> > > are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views
> of
> > > AMSAT-NA.
> > > Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
> > program!
> > > Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
> > to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
> Opinions
> > expressed
> > are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
> > AMSAT-NA.
> > Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
> program!
> > Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions
> expressed
> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
> AMSAT-NA.
> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
> Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2020 17:56:55 -0400
From: "Steve Kristoff" <skristof@???????.???>
To: "Joseph Armbruster" <josepharmbruster@?????.???>, "Michelle
Thompson" <mountain.michelle@?????.???>
Cc: AMSAT BB <amsat-bb@?????.???>
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Open Source Satellite Work Determined to be
Free of ITAR
Message-ID: <999bb7cf2802f53ead8bda77da89ce3d@???????.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Really, Joseph, we get your point. Give your typing fingers a rest.
Steve AI9IN
?
----- Original Message -----
From: Joseph Armbruster via AMSAT-BB (amsat-bb@?????.????
Date: 08/19/20 17:47
To: Michelle Thompson (mountain.michelle@?????.????
Cc: AMSAT BB (amsat-bb@?????.????
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Open Source Satellite Work Determined to be Free of
ITAR
Michelle,
Ok, so just everyone on the BB is entirely clear about what is going on
here.
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2020 18:02:39 -0400
From: Joseph Armbruster <josepharmbruster@?????.???>
To: John Brier <johnbrier@?????.???>
Cc: Amsat - BBs <amsat-bb@?????.???>
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Transparency and Double Standards
Message-ID:
<CADkz4c_C78Ai-ivt4NPXDsgdOP+0xmAb87-sMFEwHfS7G9vRmQ@????.?????.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
John Brier,
Anyone on the -bb can see right through this John, by simply examining the
submission form from the DDTC themselves. Anyone on the -bb can register
with the DDTC Right Now and submit the same form for some other request...
and, send me, you and everyone else on the-bb a copy of the forms before,
after, or during the submission. The DDTC does not require it to be kept a
secret.
And, an attorney was hired... whoopty doo! Did whoever is working with the
attorney sign over all right, title and interest in the form submission to
the attorney!? And if-so, do you really trust people that think having to
ask an attorney for permission to handle their own information is a great
idea!?! Just the thought of being pigeon holed into working with a single
attorney or firm and having to check with them to get a release signed from
them, before releasing information like this, is frightening to me! It's
not like this is a criminal defense case... This whole thing is
functionally equivalent to some couple hiring an attorney to help fill out
immigration forms and then some family member comes up to them and asks
"hey can i see how you filled out section X?"... and then, the couple turns
around and says "Oh, no... I have to ask my attorney for a release before I
let you see it".... seriously ?!!?
Why, in all humanity... would you ever give an attorney leverage over your
documents / information ?!?!
She's going to be hard pressed to find anyone else that has publicized
their DDTC submissions. But this is entirely besides the point and
irrelevant, and YOU ALL KNOW IT. Most companies have a reason to protect
the development of their (or others) defense articles. There are no
defense articles or other IP to protect here, as-far-as-we-all-know?!!?!?
Why does an organization focused on transparent open source development of
amateur satellite technology care about protecting this submission to the
DDTC? That's a more critical question. Why wasn't the DDTC submission
provided to the -bb community before being sent out? So we could know what
was being requested and why?
Attach, select file, send already,
Joseph Armbruster
KJ4JIO
On Wed, Aug 19, 2020 at 5:34 PM John Brier via AMSAT-BB <amsat-bb@?????.???>
wrote:
> This is not a double standard or a lack of transparency. Their lawyer
> requested they not release certain information and they are doing as
> requested.
>
> Open source software companies work with security embargos on
> vulnerabilities, and NDAs on prerelease hardware all the time. They keep
> specific things secret for as long as they have to and then open it up as
> soon as they can.
>
> Michelle even said she would double check with the lawyers to see if they
> can release it. She is also looking into whether there are examples of this
> form being published online by other orgs. She is not saying flat out no
> because I have a right to.
>
> 73, John Brier KG4AKV
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 19, 2020, 16:21 David Swanson via AMSAT-BB <amsat-bb@?????.???
> >
> wrote:
>
> > I'm sorry - but this thread is absolutely hilarious, and the last reply
> by
> > Mr. Perens is the cherry on top of the stupidity cake.
> >
> > Michelle and her comrades have spouted all about transparency and
> openness
> > for the past year, but when they're presented with an opportunity to be
> > transparent and open with their competing organizations they play the
> 'Our
> > Lawyers said not to share card'. When presented with their hypocrisy they
> > retreat to the completely expected position of politicians everywhere by
> > claiming that while AMSAT should make everything open, ORI has a right to
> > keep things secret, because what they're doing is special and different.
> > And then - amazingly - still have the audacity to somehow justify their
> > position by claiming AMSAT isn't launching satellites? Unless I'm
> mistaken,
> > ORI/Perens Inc. have launched precisely *ZERO* birds ever - AMSAT has
> put 4
> > birds in orbit since I've been a member, and has provided parts and
> > guidance to countless 3rd parties to launch their own birds. They have a
> > realistic plan to get more birds into the orbits operators want despite
> not
> > being part of the in-crowd... I have complete faith that they will
> deliver,
> > because they already have. ORI has delivered jack all except promises and
> > chaos.
> >
> > Maybe - just MAYBE - this thread lays bare what the community will be
> > getting with "the slate" of candidates. A whole bunch of "Thee, but not
> for
> > me" type of leadership, and a whole bunch of empty guarantees.
> >
> > -Dave, KG5CCI
> >
> > On Wed, Aug 19, 2020 at 2:17 PM Bruce Perens via AMSAT-BB <
> > amsat-bb@?????.???> wrote:
> >
> > > Sorry you feel that way. The unfortunate fact is that AMSAT has already
> > > been judged by its outside funding organizations, and is going to have
> a
> > > hard time surmounting that without a major change in leadership. It
> isn't
> > > going to matter much for you to stick with leadership who can't can't
> > build
> > > and launch enough satellites. That is what it is coming to. Fixing that
> > is
> > > the only agenda.
> > >
> > > On Wed, Aug 19, 2020, 11:18 AM E.Mike McCardel via AMSAT-BB <
> > > amsat-bb@?????.???> wrote:
> > >
> > > > My final word. At least some people on your agendized team, for the
> > take
> > > > over of AMSAT, I hold or have held in high respect. That is, at least
> > > until
> > > > they allowed themselves to be associated with this travesty of ego. I
> > now
> > > > question their judgement And motivation. That?s on you. TEAM politics
> > > isn?t
> > > > what this is about. Character, track record, and how I have seen
> > > candidates
> > > > treat Me and others is how I will vote.
> > > >
> > > > I am highly disappointed that this has turned into a we / they
> > campaign.
> > > > The organization is better than that. Regardless of the outcome of
> this
> > > > election, I judge AMSAT and it reputation will be damaged moving
> > forward.
> > > >
> > > > EMike, AA8EM
> > > >
> > > > EMike McCardel, AA8EM
> > > > Past Senior Editor AMSAT News Service
> > > > Past AMSAT-NA VP Educational Relations
> > > > Former ARRL, Ohio Section, Affiliated Club Coordinator
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > On Aug 19, 2020, at 1:11 PM, Michelle Thompson <
> > > > mountain.michelle@?????.???> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > ?
> > > > > You might have missed the part where all of the information in this
> > > > particular CJ request is already publicly available. It's already
> > > > transparent.
> > > > >
> > > > > The submitted form itself is not usually published. That's the only
> > > > restriction we are talking about.
> > > > >
> > > > > This is fundamentally different from refusing to allow Directors
> > access
> > > > to corporate records unless they sign NDAs, then showing up without
> the
> > > > actual NDAs, then continuing to deny access to records and
> > communications
> > > > after everyone signed a blank form that purported to be a signature
> > form
> > > > for these alleged NDAs. Some of which have yet to be produced and you
> > as
> > > a
> > > > member are not allowed to know about.
> > > > >
> > > > > Your attack is off base and inaccurate. I'm sorry you feel the way
> > you
> > > > do. This work means that things can get dramatically better for the
> > > > organization in highly visible and measurable ways.
> > > > >
> > > > > -Michelle W5NYV
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >> On Wed, Aug 19, 2020 at 9:33 AM E.Mike McCardel via AMSAT-BB <
> > > > amsat-bb@?????.???> wrote:
> > > > >> Just an observation. Among all of this talk, during the past BOoD
> > > > election
> > > > >> cycle, about Transparency, I find it amazing that the excuse of
> the
> > > > Lawyers
> > > > >> or others don't think it wise to disclose information can even be
> an
> > > > >> argument.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Michelle Wrote:
> > > > >> "Unless, of course, this Information contained in CJ requests is
> > not
> > > > >> usually made public. The law firm would not file it unless it was
> > > > presented
> > > > >> to the State Department as private and confidential. This advice
> was
> > > > >> because virtually all requests are for proprietary programs and
> > > > products.
> > > > >> Sticking out in this regard, by doing something they advised
> > strongly
> > > > >> against, would not work to our
> > > > >> advantage in any way. I want to win for open source, not die on
> the
> > > > wrong
> > > > >> hill. as an admission that NDA's are indeed important and not
> just
> > > > >> convenient."
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Is this not the very essence of Non-Disclosure Agreements? Without
> > the
> > > > >> transparency which seems to be lacking here this comes across as a
> > > > simple
> > > > >> political stunt. Enough already.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> I am not voting for any TEAM, I'm putting my trust in individuals
> > > whom I
> > > > >> respect and trust and have no agenda other than serving AMSAT to
> > keep
> > > > >> amateur radio in space.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> EMike, AA8EM
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> E. Michael McCardel, AA8EM, former KC8YLD
> > > > >> Former Senior Editor for AMSAT News Service,
> > > > >> Past VP Educational Relations for AMSAT-NA
> > > > >> Former Ohio Section Affiliated Club Coordinator
> > > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > > >> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum
> > available
> > > > >> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
> > > > Opinions expressed
> > > > >> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official
> > views
> > > > of AMSAT-NA.
> > > > >> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
> > > > program!
> > > > >> Subscription settings:
> > > https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum
> available
> > > > to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
> > > Opinions
> > > > expressed
> > > > are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views
> > of
> > > > AMSAT-NA.
> > > > Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
> > > program!
> > > > Subscription settings:
> https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
> > > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
> > > to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
> > Opinions
> > > expressed
> > > are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views
> of
> > > AMSAT-NA.
> > > Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
> > program!
> > > Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
> > to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
> Opinions
> > expressed
> > are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
> > AMSAT-NA.
> > Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
> program!
> > Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions
> expressed
> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
> AMSAT-NA.
> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
> Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2020 15:14:30 -0700
From: Bruce Perens <bruce@??????.???>
To: Joseph Armbruster <josepharmbruster@?????.???>
Cc: Amsat - BBs <amsat-bb@?????.???>, "E.Mike McCardel"
<mccardelm@?????.???>
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Transparency and Double Standards
Message-ID:
<CAK2MWOst56k1XG9aK+5kQ9ERK+k84D4QNuFVd_95vw0uXuXnEw@????.?????.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
If we can't show you this application, I think I could make one myself
without making use of attorneys, without even involving ORI, and it would
be possible to show that one. I have as much right to ask for a commodity
jurisdiction ruling as ORI. The really important information in the
application originated with me, not ORI or it's attorneys, and is part of
an ITAR strategy that I started work on long before ORI's formation. At
present, it is publicly displayed on the ORI web site, but I intend to put
it in a compliance manual I am working on.
That might be a good idea if I am to convince colleges to run this
strategy. So, I might do it. However, I am not convinced that I need to
spend my time on convincing anyone at AMSAT. At some point it becomes less
effort to simply let AMSAT die and carry on the work elsewhere. That
decision would come on about September 17. And yes, I think AMSAT would
eventually die if it continued to not have a viable ITAR strategy and every
other organization did.
There is also the fact that, with respect for the polite ones, the people
who are arguing on the mailing list are not in a position to set ITAR
policy at AMSAT, and I would hope that by now everyone has submitted their
ballot. So, this discussion might be moot at this point.
Thanks
Bruce
On Wed, Aug 19, 2020 at 1:42 PM Joseph Armbruster <
josepharmbruster@?????.???> wrote:
> Bruce,
>
>
> Yet another well played detraction from my original point... That the
> forms submitted to the DDTC tell a story and contain all of the details of
> the claim... details, which none of us on the -bb have been able to read
> for ourselves, because they have NOT been shared publicly.
>
>
> AMSAT is having a difficult time navigating right now, because of your
> groups smoke and mirrors. It's the only negative traffic on the -bb. I do
> feel bad for AMSAT, but only because of that. I think the leadership has
> been doing a reasonably good job, but they don't take the time to reach out
> to the public and... brag enough about their accomplishments. Honestly, I
> think PR is their only failure. That's the only reason you and your group
> can say the things you do on here, there are a lot of mis-informed
> members. Speaking of launching satellites... How many satellites have you
> been involved with building and launching in the last, say, 15 years,
> through any organization, while AMSAT was hard at work?
>
>
> I'm sticking with the people that have produced results and I maintain
> that a vote for Hammond, Paige and Stoetzer will continue to push AMSAT in
> the best direction. Whether or not a lot of people on the -bb can see it
> or not, is one thing. I sure hope they do. Talk is cheap, it's easy for
> someone to come on here and bash other peoples hard work in a couple lines
> in an email, and sound honorable and noble and hide behind false-claims.
> That... is unfortunate. All i'm trying to do on this thread is ask for the
> documentation that was submitted to the DDTC... that's not an abnormal or
> extraordinary request, give the open source nature of it all. Michelle did
> say she would try to release the INPUT form... i'll be standing by.
>
>
> Joseph Armbruster
>
> KJ4JIO
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 19, 2020 at 3:46 PM Bruce Perens via AMSAT-BB <
> amsat-bb@?????.???> wrote:
>
>> Sorry you feel that way. The unfortunate fact is that AMSAT has already
>> been judged by its outside funding organizations, and is going to have a
>> hard time surmounting that without a major change in leadership. It isn't
>> going to matter much for you to stick with leadership who can't can't
>> build
>> and launch enough satellites. That is what it is coming to. Fixing that is
>> the only agenda.
>>
>> On Wed, Aug 19, 2020, 11:18 AM E.Mike McCardel via AMSAT-BB <
>> amsat-bb@?????.???> wrote:
>>
>> > My final word. At least some people on your agendized team, for the take
>> > over of AMSAT, I hold or have held in high respect. That is, at least
>> until
>> > they allowed themselves to be associated with this travesty of ego. I
>> now
>> > question their judgement And motivation. That?s on you. TEAM politics
>> isn?t
>> > what this is about. Character, track record, and how I have seen
>> candidates
>> > treat Me and others is how I will vote.
>> >
>> > I am highly disappointed that this has turned into a we / they campaign.
>> > The organization is better than that. Regardless of the outcome of this
>> > election, I judge AMSAT and it reputation will be damaged moving
>> forward.
>> >
>> > EMike, AA8EM
>> >
>> > EMike McCardel, AA8EM
>> > Past Senior Editor AMSAT News Service
>> > Past AMSAT-NA VP Educational Relations
>> > Former ARRL, Ohio Section, Affiliated Club Coordinator
>> >
>> >
>> > > On Aug 19, 2020, at 1:11 PM, Michelle Thompson <
>> > mountain.michelle@?????.???> wrote:
>> > >
>> > > ?
>> > > You might have missed the part where all of the information in this
>> > particular CJ request is already publicly available. It's already
>> > transparent.
>> > >
>> > > The submitted form itself is not usually published. That's the only
>> > restriction we are talking about.
>> > >
>> > > This is fundamentally different from refusing to allow Directors
>> access
>> > to corporate records unless they sign NDAs, then showing up without the
>> > actual NDAs, then continuing to deny access to records and
>> communications
>> > after everyone signed a blank form that purported to be a signature form
>> > for these alleged NDAs. Some of which have yet to be produced and you
>> as a
>> > member are not allowed to know about.
>> > >
>> > > Your attack is off base and inaccurate. I'm sorry you feel the way you
>> > do. This work means that things can get dramatically better for the
>> > organization in highly visible and measurable ways.
>> > >
>> > > -Michelle W5NYV
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >> On Wed, Aug 19, 2020 at 9:33 AM E.Mike McCardel via AMSAT-BB <
>> > amsat-bb@?????.???> wrote:
>> > >> Just an observation. Among all of this talk, during the past BOoD
>> > election
>> > >> cycle, about Transparency, I find it amazing that the excuse of the
>> > Lawyers
>> > >> or others don't think it wise to disclose information can even be an
>> > >> argument.
>> > >>
>> > >> Michelle Wrote:
>> > >> "Unless, of course, this Information contained in CJ requests is not
>> > >> usually made public. The law firm would not file it unless it was
>> > presented
>> > >> to the State Department as private and confidential. This advice was
>> > >> because virtually all requests are for proprietary programs and
>> > products.
>> > >> Sticking out in this regard, by doing something they advised strongly
>> > >> against, would not work to our
>> > >> advantage in any way. I want to win for open source, not die on the
>> > wrong
>> > >> hill. as an admission that NDA's are indeed important and not just
>> > >> convenient."
>> > >>
>> > >> Is this not the very essence of Non-Disclosure Agreements? Without
>> the
>> > >> transparency which seems to be lacking here this comes across as a
>> > simple
>> > >> political stunt. Enough already.
>> > >>
>> > >> I am not voting for any TEAM, I'm putting my trust in individuals
>> whom I
>> > >> respect and trust and have no agenda other than serving AMSAT to keep
>> > >> amateur radio in space.
>> > >>
>> > >> EMike, AA8EM
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> E. Michael McCardel, AA8EM, former KC8YLD
>> > >> Former Senior Editor for AMSAT News Service,
>> > >> Past VP Educational Relations for AMSAT-NA
>> > >> Former Ohio Section Affiliated Club Coordinator
>> > >> _______________________________________________
>> > >> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum
>> available
>> > >> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
>> > Opinions expressed
>> > >> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views
>> > of AMSAT-NA.
>> > >> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
>> > program!
>> > >> Subscription settings:
>> https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
>> > to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
>> Opinions
>> > expressed
>> > are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
>> > AMSAT-NA.
>> > Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
>> program!
>> > Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>> >
>> _______________________________________________
>> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
>> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
>> Opinions expressed
>> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
>> AMSAT-NA.
>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
>> Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>>
>
--
Bruce Perens - CEO at stealth startup. I'll tell you what it is eventually
:-)
------------------------------
Subject: Digest Footer
_______________________________________________
Sent via amsat-bb@?????.???.
AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide
without requiring membership. Opinions expressed
are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
AMSAT-NA.
Not an AMSAT member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
------------------------------
End of AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol 15, Issue 346
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