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CX2SA > SATDIG 29.09.20 19:05l 682 Lines 26204 Bytes #999 (0) @ WW
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Subj: AMSAT-BB-digest V15 392
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From: CX2SA@CX2SA.SAL.URY.SOAM
To : SATDIG@WW
Today's Topics:
1. Re: Election Results (John Brier)
2. Election Results (diasppointing) (Stephen DeVience)
3. Re: Election results (Michael Tondee)
4. Re: Election results (Paul Stoetzer)
5. Election Results (diasppointing) (Joe Leikhim)
6. Re: Election Results (Zach Metzinger)
7. Re: Election Results (Zach Metzinger)
8. EMERGENCY MODERATION MODE (Robert Bankston)
9. Amazon's Smile Program (Gerald Payton)
10. Re: Amazon's Smile Program (Dave Taylor)
11. Re: Amazon's Smile Program (Bill Gaylord)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2020 19:12:20 -0400
From: John Brier <johnbrier@?????.???>
To: Zach Metzinger <zmetzing@?????.???>
Cc: AMSAT BB <amsat-bb@?????.???>
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Election Results
Message-ID:
<CALn0fKNaKu2yheS9MwMptkeC3OfHgwktV0FbSXA5xnR2Pi23vg@????.?????.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
I understand your not wanting discussion not related to engineering or
operations on this list, but there is nothing against the rules about
discussing the election or any other internal AMSAT issues on this list.
If you think there should be a rule against it or it should be moved
somewhere else, you should make a serious argument for it in another thread
or take it up with the org in some other serious way.
I personally think this discussion is critical to AMSAT's ability to
function well, or at least change in positive ways.
I also think the list has been managed well through this, which is a
compliment to the incumbents considering this is mostly about things others
wish the incumbents did differently.
To me it is democratic, a sign of free speech, or other similar values. I
hope we can all try to uphold these types of values within this community.
73, John Brier KG4AKV
P.S.
You can campaign lots of ways. Yes by doing things that aren't resisted...
But what about things that are resisted? Then you are forced to criticize
the resistance, and those that resist can make their case as to why their
resistance is legitimate, and back and forth until the situation resolves
itself. That is how change happens, or doesn't. But you can't justify your
resistance by just saying no louder.
P.P.S.
Please don't say what "we" are here for without specifying exactly who we
is because I am not here only for that. I care about what kinds of
satellites are built, what functions they have, and how and why they are
commanded to do certain things.
All that affects how I am able to interact with them from the ground. Since
I am not designing, building, or commanding them, discussion with the
people who are, or the people they are directed by is my only way of
affecting what is put in space. For my part I provide financial support
while trying to welcome and support new sat ops who bring in their own
financial resources.
All hams who use sats need designers and builders like you.
You all are doing the most technical work that many of us can't do. I am
grateful and I think those of us who don't design and build but just use,
are grateful too. I need you but I think you need me and those of us who
don't design or build as well because this is an expensive hobby in sum. We
have to work together.
P.P.P.S.
Thanks for reading.
On Mon, Sep 28, 2020, 17:29 Zach Metzinger via AMSAT-BB <amsat-bb@?????.???>
wrote:
> On 09/28/20 15:31, john--- via AMSAT-BB wrote:
> > There has been little discussion about the meaning of the election
> > results themselves and that is what really matters.
>
> John,
>
> I, speaking only for myself, don't want that to start on this list.
>
> The vote is over. The membership has spoken.
>
> If someone wants to run during the next election, now is the time to
> demonstrate and exemplify being a leader. That person will gather
> support, and that support could carry them onto the board during the
> next cycle.
>
> If you don't want to be part of AMSAT, there appears to be at least one
> other alternative (ORI). I suspect, in time, ORI will have some of the
> same discussions/debates/arguments/mudslinging on their list. History
> has a knack for repeating itself.
>
> We're here to design, build, and/or operate satellites, and I hope we
> get back to that.
>
> 73,
>
> --- Zach
> N0ZGO
> _______________________________________________
> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions
> expressed
> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
> AMSAT-NA.
> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
> Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2020 20:18:52 -0400
From: Stephen DeVience <sjdevience@?????.???>
To: amsat-bb@?????.???
Subject: [amsat-bb] Election Results (diasppointing)
Message-ID:
<CAMPfQQDeYO0Ht-9Y1GogKXF44qaUemt+ef3oT-m0VFfVO5RRUQ@????.?????.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Bob,
You make a good point about the money available for academic projects. It
seems like there are more and more student- and university-built satellites
using amateur frequencies (sometimes questionably), but with no actual
transponder or digipeater. Working with them to add a small transponder
payload like the LTM or the Brno PSK module could be an easy way to get
more bandwidth up there without a lot of overhead cost.
I also back your sentiment that AMSAT should consider applying to more
grants from places like ARDC and maybe even the NSF or similar. Education
is one of its main purposes, and the NSF may be open to it.
-Stephen, N8URE
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2020 19:59:32 -0400
From: Michael Tondee <mat_62@???????.???>
To: amsat-bb@?????.???? Bruce Perens <bruce@??????.???>,
mountain.michelle@?????.???
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Election results
Message-ID: <d796d045-ad79-440b-b971-5cf6d2c123c5@???????.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
The membership has spoken. I don't agree with their decision but that's
life. I wish the organization the best. I was ready to move on and
pursue some other things and was about to unsubscribe from the list but
seeing a post like this where someone of Bob's stature in the hobby
expresses his opinion gives me hope all is not lost and makes me want to
not be so hasty and quick to judge. I may hang around awhile longer and
see what direction the organization takes.
73,
Michael, W4HIJ
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2020 17:21:31 -0400
> From: Robert Bruninga <bruninga@????.???>
> To: amsat bb <amsat-bb@?????.???>
> Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Election Results (diasppointing)
> Message-ID:
> <CALdCfNL_iX7yHvR=20vJMfhjGtO4rk90WtVYDW6yVKEUOXiGwA@????.?????.???>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> I am disappointed to learn of these results. I thought the new progressive
> group was headed in the right direction.
>
> Satellite research takes money and there is lots of it out there! I just
> retired from a "university" where I found it fun to try to build amateur
> satellites with available project funding. But My fun was building them,
> not trying to figure out how to pay for them. I was getting by on maybe a
> $10k per year budget.
>
> But then more academic faculty came on board. They spent their time
> looking for grants and money and writing proposals and we were swimming in
> so much money we did not have the resources to spend it! For a guy who
> likes to build a cubesat on a table top,, I could not possibly spend even a
> fraction of it. BUT THEY WERE leading in the right direction. They showed
> how there is so much money out there that if you just direct your interests
> and proposals correctly there is plenty to go around and to cover the
> amateur interests as well.
>
> I learned the lesson that academics is all about making proposals and
> getting BIG bucks to do things that meet your mutual interests. That is
> the only way AMSAT can survive is to have those people on the leading edge
> and making proposals where AMSAT and other interests overlap.
>
> I really ignored all the AMSAT BB arguing going on, because I thought it
> was obvious that the progressives were on the right track and the status
> quo was just holding us back. I am shocked to see the progressives lost.
>
> Bob, WB4APR
>
> On Mon, Sep 28, 2020 at 5:02 PM john--- via AMSAT-BB <amsat-bb@?????.???>
> wrote:
>
>> It was unfortunate that the election results were not released in a
>> separate message on the amsat-bb. The mistake was explained by Mark
>> Johns, K0JM, and is totally understandable. Putting out a weekly or
>> monthly newsletter is a lot of work and those who have done it here or
>> elsewhere know how much effort it takes. So hats off to those who do
>> this for AMSAT.
>>
>> There has been little discussion about the meaning of the election
>> results themselves and that is what really matters. About 57% of the
>> votes were for the three candidates who campaigned on staying the
>> course. 43% of the votes wanted a change of some sort. So the
>> organization is divided, but how serious the divide remains to be seen.
>>
>>
>> Although they were not on the ballot, In some ways the election was a
>> referendum on Patrick and Michelle who have made their positions known
>> to the membership that has been paying attention. Now that they did not
>> pick up any support from the election, will they continue to serve? And
>> if they choose not to serve, will the alternates (who wanted change
>> also) feel that they would be able to contribute in a meaningful way?
>> As Kenny Rogers once said, "You've got to know when to hold 'em, know
>> when to fold 'em, know when to walk away, know when to run." Some
>> members have already announced their intentions not to serve in various
>> ways and for various reasons. Others may follow.
>>
>> The Symposium and associated Board Meeting coming up soon may provide
>> some answers as to the future direction of AMSAT. We will wait and see
>> how it all turns out.
>>
>> 73, John K8YSE
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>
>
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2020 20:34:46 -0400
From: Paul Stoetzer <n8hm@????.???>
To: Michael Tondee <mat_62@???????.???>
Cc: AMSAT BB <amsat-bb@?????.???>
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Election results
Message-ID:
<CABzOSOpjB5SpQGvqsCpsSqHy_Lw5B4DNdSMQRV=vmv69EkH5tg@????.?????.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
There's a lot of misconceptions out there that AMSAT is somehow
"standing still" or "behind the times." This is all just completely
wrong. I would encourage everyone to attend/view the AMSAT Virtual
Symposium on October 17th. We're going to have a lot of interesting
presentations on all the exciting and cutting edge things that we're
working on: GOLF, ARISS/AREx, the CubeSat Simulator, LTM, etc.
AMSAT members should also check out the July/August 2020 edition of
The AMSAT Journal at launch.amsat.org. Jerry's Engineering Update
gives good background on GOLF and an update on GOLF-TEE's progress.
73,
Paul, N8HM
On Mon, Sep 28, 2020 at 8:24 PM Michael Tondee via AMSAT-BB
<amsat-bb@?????.???> wrote:
>
>
> The membership has spoken. I don't agree with their decision but that's
> life. I wish the organization the best. I was ready to move on and
> pursue some other things and was about to unsubscribe from the list but
> seeing a post like this where someone of Bob's stature in the hobby
> expresses his opinion gives me hope all is not lost and makes me want to
> not be so hasty and quick to judge. I may hang around awhile longer and
> see what direction the organization takes.
>
> 73,
>
> Michael, W4HIJ
>
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 9
> > Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2020 17:21:31 -0400
> > From: Robert Bruninga <bruninga@????.???>
> > To: amsat bb <amsat-bb@?????.???>
> > Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Election Results (diasppointing)
> > Message-ID:
> > <CALdCfNL_iX7yHvR=20vJMfhjGtO4rk90WtVYDW6yVKEUOXiGwA@????.?????.???>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
> >
> > I am disappointed to learn of these results. I thought the new progressive
> > group was headed in the right direction.
> >
> > Satellite research takes money and there is lots of it out there! I just
> > retired from a "university" where I found it fun to try to build amateur
> > satellites with available project funding. But My fun was building them,
> > not trying to figure out how to pay for them. I was getting by on maybe
a
> > $10k per year budget.
> >
> > But then more academic faculty came on board. They spent their time
> > looking for grants and money and writing proposals and we were swimming in
> > so much money we did not have the resources to spend it! For a guy who
> > likes to build a cubesat on a table top,, I could not possibly spend
even a
> > fraction of it. BUT THEY WERE leading in the right direction. They
showed
> > how there is so much money out there that if you just direct your
interests
> > and proposals correctly there is plenty to go around and to cover the
> > amateur interests as well.
> >
> > I learned the lesson that academics is all about making proposals and
> > getting BIG bucks to do things that meet your mutual interests. That is
> > the only way AMSAT can survive is to have those people on the leading edge
> > and making proposals where AMSAT and other interests overlap.
> >
> > I really ignored all the AMSAT BB arguing going on, because I thought it
> > was obvious that the progressives were on the right track and the status
> > quo was just holding us back. I am shocked to see the progressives lost.
> >
> > Bob, WB4APR
> >
> > On Mon, Sep 28, 2020 at 5:02 PM john--- via AMSAT-BB <amsat-bb@?????.???>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> It was unfortunate that the election results were not released in a
> >> separate message on the amsat-bb. The mistake was explained by Mark
> >> Johns, K0JM, and is totally understandable. Putting out a weekly or
> >> monthly newsletter is a lot of work and those who have done it here or
> >> elsewhere know how much effort it takes. So hats off to those who do
> >> this for AMSAT.
> >>
> >> There has been little discussion about the meaning of the election
> >> results themselves and that is what really matters. About 57% of the
> >> votes were for the three candidates who campaigned on staying the
> >> course. 43% of the votes wanted a change of some sort. So the
> >> organization is divided, but how serious the divide remains to be seen.
> >>
> >>
> >> Although they were not on the ballot, In some ways the election was a
> >> referendum on Patrick and Michelle who have made their positions known
> >> to the membership that has been paying attention. Now that they did not
> >> pick up any support from the election, will they continue to serve? And
> >> if they choose not to serve, will the alternates (who wanted change
> >> also) feel that they would be able to contribute in a meaningful way?
> >> As Kenny Rogers once said, "You've got to know when to hold 'em, know
> >> when to fold 'em, know when to walk away, know when to run." Some
> >> members have already announced their intentions not to serve in various
> >> ways and for various reasons. Others may follow.
> >>
> >> The Symposium and associated Board Meeting coming up soon may provide
> >> some answers as to the future direction of AMSAT. We will wait and see
> >> how it all turns out.
> >>
> >> 73, John K8YSE
> >> _______________________________________________
> >>
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions
expressed
> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
AMSAT-NA.
> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
> Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2020 17:49:35 -0400
From: Joe Leikhim <rhyolite@???????.???>
To: amsat-bb@?????.???
Subject: [amsat-bb] Election Results (diasppointing)
Message-ID: <6c0a211e-aab1-4f5c-3415-4bc1b3d3b386@???????.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
I am with Bob on this.
A month or two back I raised the question * about why we were not getting
into HEO and got barraged with the same old excuses from the "old guard"
about ITAR, Funding, etc. It was clearly distressing to me as a long time
AMSAT member to learn that all the old guard can do is regurgitate the same
mantra for 15 years. Meanwhile our friends on the other side of the globe
have a GEO sat that anyone with a small amount of funds can use, and with no
funds can listen to the downlink on the "internet".
Michelle sent me some information about ORI and the "progressive" efforts
being made to get past the ITAR logjam. It was not shared with me the
funding windfall that was becoming available which should wake folks up now.
I voted for the progressive group. I don't see the shortfall in votes as
being a "referendum" for the old guard, rather, they need to step up and
accept that continuing the defeatist mindset cannot continue. Get on the
ball AMSAD BOD!!!
* [amsat-bb] GeoSat OSCAR-2024 Positive comments, no whining....(Was need
HEO..please..)
Joe K4SAT VERY Cautiously optimistic
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2020 17:21:31 -0400
From: Robert Bruninga<bruninga@????.???>
"I am disappointed to learn of these results. I thought the new progressive
group was headed in the right direction.
Satellite research takes money and there is lots of it out there! I just
retired from a "university" where I found it fun to try to build amateur
satellites with available project funding. But My fun was building them,
not trying to figure out how to pay for them. I was getting by on maybe a
$10k per year budget.
But then more academic faculty came on board. They spent their time
looking for grants and money and writing proposals and we were swimming in
so much money we did not have the resources to spend it! For a guy who
likes to build a cubesat on a table top,, I could not possibly spend even a
fraction of it. BUT THEY WERE leading in the right direction. They showed
how there is so much money out there that if you just direct your interests
and proposals correctly there is plenty to go around and to cover the
amateur interests as well.
I learned the lesson that academics is all about making proposals and
getting BIG bucks to do things that meet your mutual interests. That is
the only way AMSAT can survive is to have those people on the leading edge
and making proposals where AMSAT and other interests overlap.
I really ignored all the AMSAT BB arguing going on, because I thought it
was obvious that the progressives were on the right track and the status
quo was just holding us back. I am shocked to see the progressives lost.
Bob, WB4APR"
--
Joe K4SAT
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2020 21:50:36 -0500
From: Zach Metzinger <zmetzing@?????.???>
To: AMSAT BB <amsat-bb@?????.???>
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Election Results
Message-ID: <3fb07847-1c4c-689a-f12c-1b951f5993c8@?????.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
On 2020-09-28 18:12, John Brier wrote:
> Please don't say what "we" are here for without specifying exactly who
> we is because I am not here only for that. I care about what kinds of
> satellites are built, what functions they have, and how and why they are
> commanded to do certain things.
Hello John,
Small point of clarification: I should have said "operating via", which
would be using them, not commanding them.
I should have also avoided the pronoun "we". I do not claim to speak for
anyone else.
I sincerely wish for a different mailing list which would cover only
technical aspects of, news about, and operating via our fleet. I have
absolutely no interest in rehashing election results or armchair
quarterbacking of the management.
It seems to me that AMSAT is making progress. While Fox-1C failed, it is
an outlier. Let's all root for a flawless Fox-1D launch and commissioning!
Golf-T and Golf-1 look to be great satellites, especially for microwave
experimenters. This is my area of interest, and I've already obtained
some bits and bobs, as our friends across the pond are fond of saying,
for RX on 10GHz.
(I've been cleared by the XYL to put a rotator on the shed roof.
Hopefully, I'll be able to point antennas at satellites soon!)
--- Zach
N0ZGO
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2020 21:52:41 -0500
From: Zach Metzinger <zmetzing@?????.???>
To: AMSAT BB <amsat-bb@?????.???>
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Election Results
Message-ID: <6ac0868d-88dc-9f4a-c1ae-102ac72f3f69@?????.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
On 2020-09-28 21:50, Zach Metzinger wrote:
> an outlier. Let's all root for a flawless Fox-1D launch and commissioning!
Correction: Fox-1E
(Too late for me to be writing emails.)
--- Zach
N0ZGO
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2020 14:01:52 +0000 (UTC)
From: Robert Bankston <ke4al@?????.???>
To: AMSAT BB <amsat-bb@?????.???>
Subject: [amsat-bb] EMERGENCY MODERATION MODE
Message-ID: <2078030422.185054.1601388112422@????.?????.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
The AMSAT-BB is a mailing list to support technical discussions, inquiries,
and suggestions related to amateur satellite service.? Its? audience
includes both AMSAT members and non-members. At any given time, the readers
may also include amateur radio operators, shortwave listeners, minors,
potential financial donors, potential launch providers, officials from other
amateur radio and satellite organizations, officials from international
space agencies, and equipment suppliers and manufacturers.
??
As such, the AMSAT-BB is not a "free speech" zone.? There is prescribed
acceptable and unacceptable content.?
??
Due to the continued abuse by some subscribers, I have placed the AMSAT-BB
on Emergency Moderation.? Moderators will review each post to ensure it
complies with the Acceptable Use Policy.? Those found not to be in
compliance will be removed from the list.
??
This will inevitably cause a delay in your messages being posted; however it
is essential to ensure a safe and constructive environment.? I apologize for
the inconvenience.
??
Respectfully,
??
Robert Bankston, KE4AL
Vice-President, User Services
Radio Amateur Satellite Corporation (AMSAT)
------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2020 16:10:47 +0000
From: Gerald Payton <gp_ab5r@???????.???>
To: "amsat-BB@?????.???? <amsat-BB@?????.???>
Subject: [amsat-bb] Amazon's Smile Program
Message-ID:
<SN6PR11MB2752468A63A8C47D49E9D515D0320@?????????????.????????.????.???????.??
?>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Please reiterate HOW to credit Amsat on Amazon's Smile Program. I tried,
but "Amsat" was not found.
Thanks
73,
Jerry AB5R
------------------------------
Message: 10
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2020 12:45:04 -0400
From: Dave Taylor <ariss.w8aas@?????.???>
To: Gerald Payton <gp_ab5r@???????.???>
Cc: "amsat-BB@?????.???? <amsat-BB@?????.???>
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Amazon's Smile Program
Message-ID: <4F0A93F4-1A71-4A32-9E9C-3E2FACFEAD33@?????.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
They are listed as Radio Amateur Satellite Corporation. That?s the formal
name of AMSAT.
Dave W8AAS
> On Sep 29, 2020, at 12:10 PM, Gerald Payton via AMSAT-BB
<amsat-bb@?????.???> wrote:
>
> Please reiterate HOW to credit Amsat on Amazon's Smile Program. I tried,
but "Amsat" was not found.
> Thanks
>
> 73,
> Jerry AB5R
> _______________________________________________
> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions
expressed
> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
AMSAT-NA.
> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
> Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
------------------------------
Message: 11
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2020 11:43:57 -0500
From: Bill Gaylord <chibill110@?????.???>
To: Gerald Payton <gp_ab5r@???????.???>
Cc: "amsat-BB@?????.???? <amsat-BB@?????.???>
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Amazon's Smile Program
Message-ID:
<CALS66Fu9hiNKSRGuvn72gazn3xfz7185w8wiAw8LTTe+Y7gBuA@????.?????.???>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
I am pretty sure its called Radio Amateur Satellite Corporation on
smile.amazon.com
William
KD9KCK
On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 11:39 AM Gerald Payton via AMSAT-BB <
amsat-bb@?????.???> wrote:
> Please reiterate HOW to credit Amsat on Amazon's Smile Program. I tried,
> but "Amsat" was not found.
> Thanks
>
> 73,
> Jerry AB5R
> _______________________________________________
> Sent via AMSAT-BB@?????.???. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions
> expressed
> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
> AMSAT-NA.
> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
> Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>
------------------------------
Subject: Digest Footer
_______________________________________________
Sent via amsat-bb@?????.???.
AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide
without requiring membership. Opinions expressed
are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
AMSAT-NA.
Not an AMSAT member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
------------------------------
End of AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol 15, Issue 392
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