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CX2SA > SATDIG 29.11.15 04:04l 932 Lines 35252 Bytes #999 (0) @ WW
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Sent: 151129/0202Z @:CX2SA.SAL.URY.SOAM #:34523 [Salto] FBB7.00e $:AMSATBB10369
From: CX2SA@CX2SA.SAL.URY.SOAM
To : SATDIG@WW
Today's Topics:
1. Re: Minimum 10m equipment for NO-84? (Koos van den Hout)
2. Re: Minimum 10m equipment for NO-84? (Bob KD7YZ)
3. Re: Flex radio for satellites (Richard Lawn)
4. Re: SAT work with FLEX radio (Ronald G. Parsons)
5. HM58 active (pedro@xxxxxxxxxx.xxxxx
6. AO-85 and AnyTone TERMN-8R, full-duplex - report (long)
(Patrick STODDARD (WD9EWK/VA7EWK))
7. FLEX-5000A Radio with RX2 Option and External Transverters
Full Duplex Satellite Operation Confirmed (Bill Bordy, NJ1H )
8. Re: AO-85 and AnyTone TERMN-8R, full-duplex - report (long)
(Steve May)
9. Re: FLEX-5000A Radio with RX2 Option and External
Transverters Full Duplex Satellite Operation Confirmed (Jeff)
10. Re: AO-85 and AnyTone TERMN-8R, full-duplex - report (long)
(Patrick STODDARD (WD9EWK/VA7EWK))
11. Re: Flex radio for satellites (David)
12. AO-85 and Puxing PX-UV973, full-duplex - report (not so long)
(Patrick STODDARD (WD9EWK/VA7EWK))
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2015 10:52:45 +0100
From: Koos van den Hout <koos@xxxxxx.xxxxxx.xx>
To: amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Minimum 10m equipment for NO-84?
Message-ID: <20151126095245.GA15702@xxxxxx.xxxxxx.xx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Quoting Daniel Est?vez who wrote on Thu 2015-11-26 at 09:44:
> > But all the data modes interest me, and perhaps others. If someone
would be kind enough to list what hardware might be required for the
transmit side of NO-84's PSK-31 capability, it sure would be appreciated.
(low-cost options preferred!)
>
> One thing that you might want to consider is getting a 10m-only
> transceiver. There are several inexpensive ones from Chinese
> manufacturers, such as the Anytone AT-5555. These will cost around
> 100$-150$ and put out up to 20W or so.
I don't know how easy it is to input audio from PSK31 software into such a
radio. Holding the mic up to your speaker may be a good start.
And to find a cheap 10 meter vertical: have a look at CB antennas. Most
will cover 28 MHz.
I did the experiment with transmitting to NO-84 using a dipole in the attic
and found I needed 20 watts on HF, see
http://idefix.net/~koos/newsitem.cgi/1433017519
Koos van den Hout PD4KH
--
Koos van den Hout PGP keyid 0xF0D7C263 via keyservers
Weather maps from free sources at
http://idefix.net/ http://weather.idefix.net/
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2015 07:19:50 -0500
From: Bob KD7YZ <kd7yz@xxxxxxxxxxx.xx>
To: Scott <scott23192@xxxxx.xxx>
Cc: AMSAT BB <amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx>
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Minimum 10m equipment for NO-84?
Message-ID: <5656F8E6.9030805@xxxxxxxxxxx.xx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
On 25-Nov-15 2345, Scott wrote:
... just what would be required to transmit PSK-31 to
> NO-84?
Per WB4APR, I got the program "PSKDoppler". That one drives my
Tigertronics-SignaLink with the data to Drive the K3. The K3 goes to the
weak-link, namely my 300-foot dipole, ladder-line-fed at 85 feet.
The antenna pattern just isn't too useful for continuous access, in a
given pass, to PSAT.
The program DopplerPSK on the other hand is nifty. Keeps the TX freq
quite stable to the uplink. Since the Downlink on 70cm is FM, I don't
seem to have to worry about Doppler corrections on that downlink. Pretty
neat indeed.
The difficulties I have are in not being strong enough, often with 90
watts, to bring-up PSAT. If the downlink is activated by her beacon,
then I get in quite well.
In my case I need a vertical for 10m.
This all may not be your minimal requirement. However, you can see what
another newbie to PSAT is trying.
> In the Amateur Radio world, I'm sure that I'm in the minority, but I
> don't even OWN an HF rig.
A comment here. As a T-Shirt which I bought for my grand-daughter says,
"When All Else Fails ... Amateur Radio." IIRC, Sparks has a Key and wire
antenna on that "T".
HF is useful to reach planet-wide in emergencies of a larger scale. With
today's digital modes like JT65, I have made VK on a half-watt. ..The
need for good CW is, to me, self-explanatory. In '58 when I started CW
was better than my nose touching the SHure-Mic and getting zapped all
the dang time. CW should be a skill set required. And mechanical CW, not
a digital representation.
This is Thanksgiving, please don't carpet-bomb me for the last
paragraph, hi hi.
Happy THANKSGIVING fellow Satellite-People.
> My primary interests are the higher ....
yes, mine too. But not all-inclusive
--
73,
Bob KD7YZ
www.qrz.com/db/kd7yz
AmSat LM#901
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2015 08:50:39 -0500
From: Richard Lawn <rjlawn@xxxxx.xxx>
To: Amsat BB <amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx>
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Flex radio for satellites
Message-ID:
<CADQmrTGU+gRvqsTXUfMAWKp9hTsi=NOzZ-WWw7yafs_iE9krxg@xxxx.xxxxx.xxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
In answer to your questions, yes the Flex 5000A could be fully equipped
with 2 rcvrs and the V/U module, however they discontinued it with the
release of their 6000 series radio. For satellites I've used the FT736f,
Ts2000 and ft847 and none compare to the ease of operation and rx quality
of the Flex5000A, which is why I'm holding on to mine.
But you could do what I'm now doing which is to use another radio capable
of V/U transmission on all modes as your uplink radio and use a 6000 series
radio with inexpensive down converters for rx. I then built a USB
relay controlled box that drives antenna switching relays. I found this to
be much cheaper than the other alternative which is to buy DEMI
transverters or possibly Elecraft. And you also end up with another really
useful radio as a backup for HF and other purposes at less cost than the 2
DEMI transverters. I've used this arrangement before (minus the automated
relay switching ) I got my tricked out Flex5000. At that time I used the
TS2000 as uplink with a Flex 5000A for downlink wth converters and it
worked great! Stay tuned for exciting articles by Ron Parsons, W5RKN, and
Dave W0DHB in the AMSAT Journal about all this. What I'm doing is a spin
off of their ideas and working with them.
73
Rick, W2JAZ
--
Sent from Gmail Mobile
--
Sent from Gmail Mobile
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2015 07:53:20 -0600
From: "Ronald G. Parsons" <w5rkn@xxxxx.xxx>
To: <amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx>
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] SAT work with FLEX radio
Message-ID: <34B37908994C44F39D674ECE4BCAF85A@xxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
Alan.
Dave, W0DHB and I are in the final stages of AMSAT Journal articles on the
implementation of a true full-duplex satellite system, in my case, based on
a FLEX-6500 and a pair of transverters.
It is working very well, supports true full-duplex, and supports SSB and FM
satellites. Stay tuned.
Ron W5RKN
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 15:49:04 -0600
From: Alan <wa4sca@xxxxx.xxx>
To: "'Edward R Cole'" <kl7uw@xxxxxxxxx.xxx>, <amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx>
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] SAT work with FLEX radio
Message-ID: <000501d127cb$1aa8ced0$4ffa6c70$@xxxxx.xxx>
There is a lively discussion on the Flex Community forum about this very
issue right now. Sounds like
all the pieces are close, but not quite there, for a convenient satellite
operation rig.
73s,
Alan
WA4SCA
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2015 15:32:15 +0000
From: pedro@xxxxxxxxxx.xxxx
To: amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx
Subject: [amsat-bb] HM58 active
Message-ID:
<20151126153215.Horde.BeOmy1CGggvU4flRCrCYSlq@xxxxxxx.xxxxxxxxxxx.xxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed; DelSp=Yes
Hi all,
I've become known as a "satellite operator" within my fellow hams from
the island I come from (CU7). So I've been taking advantage of that
and try to get them, and others, operating the sats.
I've been helping my brother to setup his interface between the PC and
his TS2000, and providing some tips, conventions and best practices on
how to operate. Despite he had operated them many years ago (including
contacts with the ISS on voice) when he didn't had a PC to help him
correct the Doppler, he had other ideas on how to do it. Gradually
he's getting better at it, same as what happened to me these last few
months.
His call is CU7BC, and I've made 2 contacts with him on XW-2F and I
know he already worked a CT1 station on his own on FO-29.
There are two other hams interested in sats on his grid, but one is
not equipped yet, and the other only has FM.
I must confess that I'm puzzled on how someone that is VHF/UHF
equipped states that is not sat equipped. Getting into any linear bird
using omnis is easy, and that's what I've been doing so far.
As a bonus, I'm also trying to get HM68 grid active, but the person in
question is not equipped yet.
So keep you ears sharp for HM58!
73 de Pedro CU2ZG
--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2015 04:06:37 +0000
From: "Patrick STODDARD (WD9EWK/VA7EWK)" <amsat-bb@xxxxxx.xxx>
To: "amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxxx <amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx>
Subject: [amsat-bb] AO-85 and AnyTone TERMN-8R, full-duplex - report
(long)
Message-ID:
<CAN6TEUfj+sR+fdTUtTuUK1D8OsNi9E7ixHToqmPbWpLSm3VrvQ@xxxx.xxxxx.xxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Hi!
After previously trying a couple of Wouxun dual-band HTs with AO-85 in the
past few weeks (KG-UV8D, KG-UV9D) on AO-85, I went back to a radio I
briefly tested before the AMSAT Symposium last month: the AnyTone TERMN-8R
2m/70cm FM HT. I didn't have much time to try it out then, but I gave it a
try this afternoon on a 48-degree AO-85 pass over the west coast. I used
the same settings in it that I did with the Wouxun KG-UV9D I tested last
weekend, so I could have a baseline to compare this radio against. I was
not surprised with the results.
The TERMN-8R was briefly on the market in the US earlier this year. This HT
was marketed as the first HT that was certified for use in 3 different FCC-
regulated services (commercial two-way radio governed by FCC Part 90, along
with GMRS and MURS). Its receiver covers much more than the 2m and 70cm
bands - broadcast AM and FM, shortwave (HF), and the VHF air band. The FCC
revoked the TERMN-8R's certification for use in the GMRS and MURS (license-
free 150 MHz VHF) services, and ordered its importer to stop selling this
radio. Since amateur equipment other than RF amplifiers operating below 144
MHz sold in the US does not require FCC certification for amateur use, this
radio is legal to use in this country on the 2m and 70cm ham bands by
licensed radio amateurs when complying with the technical requirements in
FCC Part 97.
Now that the legalities are out of the way, the simple question. Can the
TERMN-8R work AO-85 full-duplex?
YES.
I worked a pass this (Thursday) afternoon around 2337 UTC. This was a pass
with maximum elevation of 48 degrees, a good pass favoring the US west
coast. Keeping AMSAT's recent recommendations in mind for working this
satellite (low-power stations can get through on higher passes), and my own
testing that appears to put the definition of "higher passes" as when AO-85
is at least 20 degrees above the horizon, I had about 7 minutes of this
pass where I should have been able to get through. Using the same settings
I had used with the KG-UV9D last weekend, I was able to hear the satellite
well with narrow FM. I used wide FM on transmit, and I think that seems to
work well with these HTs that don't have the deviation that the HTs from
the traditional ham manufacturers (Icom, Kenwood, Yaesu) have.
Here are some key settings I used with the TERMN-8R, which are specific to
each VFO:
Uplink VFO:
T-CDC (01): 67.0HZ
STEP (10): 2.5K
W/N (11): 25K
TX (17): ON
SQL (40): 9
Downlink VFO:
STEP (10): 2.5K
W/N (11): 12.5K
TX (17): OFF
SQL (40): 00
As with the KG-UV8D and KG-UV9D, it does not matter which VFO is used for
transmit and receive. The settings I used were with the upper (A) VFO as my
transmit VFO, and the lower (B) VFO as my receive VFO. This is important
for the TX menu setting, where I disabled transmitting from the receive
VFO. I did not program any memory channels for use with AO-85, as the VFOs
work well for this type of operation. I connected an audio splitter to the
speaker jack, and fed the receive audio to an earpiece and my Sony audio
recorder.
I did not try getting through AO-85 until its elevation was up to about
20 degrees. For my first transmissions as the satellite continued climbing
to its maximum elevation of 48 degrees, I was hearing some noise when I
transmitted that covered up the downlink. This did not last long, as I was
able to hear myself while I transmitted for most of my QSOs. This HT's
receiver is pretty good - a little better than the Wouxun KG-UV8D, but not
as good as the Wouxun KG-UV9D. Using the 2.5 kHz tuning steps on both
uplink and downlink helps a lot. More work for the operator, but the lower-
power stations need all the help they can get, and some of that help is
finer tuning for the uplink signals than you can do with the 5 kHz tuning
steps.
I had a separate station set up in my yard to write an RF recording of this
pass. I used my SDRplay SDR receiver, 8-inch Windows 10 tablet with HDSDR,
and the AMSAT-UK VHF crossed dipole on an 8-foot mast and tripod. I made
sure to press Record in HDSDR, so I had an RF recording. I could tell I was
transmitting with a different radio, but my transmit audio was not horrible
from the TERMN-8R. My transmit audio also sounded OK when I listened to the
recording from my Sony audio recorder. With the occasional fades, there
were times I had audio for a portion of the pass on one recording, but not
the other.
I made 5 QSOs on this pass, with all 5 stations in different parts of
California (KG6NUB and KB5WIA in northern California, three in southern
California - K6FW, N6UK, and KB6LTY). I heard K7TRK in Oregon and N7EC
north of Phoenix on as well, but I did not work these two stations. This
was an orderly pass, stations leaving gaps between transmissions, which
really helps for those using lower transmit power levels. Sawson KG6NUB
was using around 2 watts into an Arrow Yagi and getting through for the
first half of the pass I heard.
I have uploaded the MP3 recording I made from the TERMN-8R, the larger RF
recording I made from HDSDR, and some photos plus a screenshot of how the
pass looked from AmsatDroid Free on my mobile phone, to my Dropbox space
at:
http://dropbox.wd9ewk.net/
Look for the folder "20151126-AO85_Fox1A-DM43", and look for the recordings
with file names containing something around 2340 UTC. Photos have file
names with timestamps in local time (7 hours behind UTC), if you want to
take a look at my setup before AO-85 came up from the horizon.
Since I already had the TERMN-8R, it was on my to-do list to try with
AO-85. I'm glad I tried it out, since now I can say there are at least 3
Chinese-made 2m/70cm HTs that can work AO-85 full-duplex. I found that I
could hear myself while transmitting to SO-50 using the TERMN-8R on very
high passes, but in general it is like those Wouxun HTs I previously tried
with AO-85 - don't bother trying to use it full-duplex on SO-50 or
LilacSat-2 (two V/U FM satellites), without having a second radio nearby.
With the TERMN-8R off the market, I wouldn't recommend trying to pick one
up for working AO-85. If you want to try a Chinese-made HT with AO-85 and
work this satellite full-duplex, the KG-UV9D is a better option.
73!
Patrick WD9EWK/VA7EWK
http://www.wd9ewk.net/
Twitter: @xxxxxx
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2015 00:47:54 -0500
From: "Bill Bordy, NJ1H " <nj1h@xxxxxxx.xxx>
To: amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx
Subject: [amsat-bb] FLEX-5000A Radio with RX2 Option and External
Transverters Full Duplex Satellite Operation Confirmed
Message-ID: <5657EE8A.8020206@xxxxxxx.xxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
What Mark states is absolutely true. I use my FLEX-5000A SDR with the
RX2 option for full duplex operations with external transverters. See my
qrz.com page for information on my satellite equipment.
In addition, I can call CQ, monitor my CQ frequency and at the same
time tune the downlink passband for other signals concurrently using the
MultiRX capability of the PowerSDR software. If I wish, I can direct the
CQ downlink to one ear and the other receive frequency to the other ear.
I can also view the satellite downlink's passband with the radio's
panadapter.
I also use the SATPC2 tracking program for computer controlled doppler
correction with my FLEX-5000A.
73,
Bill
NJ1H
On 11/25/2015 10:17 PM, Mark Lunday wrote:
> Edward Cole said "The larger question is whether the FLEX-6000 is a duplex
> radio? Earlier FLEX radios were not duplex. Some had two receivers but one
> could not transmit while receiving (ie operate duplex)."
>
> With respect, Sir, this is not accurate. I have a Flex 5000 with the second
> receiver installed, and absolutely can listen on the second receiver while
> transmitting on the first. It's a setting under GENERAL->RX2
>
>
> Mark Lunday, WD4ELG
> Greensboro, NC FM06be
> wd4elg@xxxx.xxx
> http://wd4elg.blogspot.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Sent via AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions
expressed
> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
AMSAT-NA.
> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
> Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2015 13:01:28 +0000
From: Steve May <steve.w5iem@xxxxx.xxx>
To: amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] AO-85 and AnyTone TERMN-8R, full-duplex -
report (long)
Message-ID:
<CAE0P9VeUjBgCrNJG=-gsjravLGhRAKMqtWxkmGULz_KscgyDmA@xxxx.xxxxx.xxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Another day, another awesome review by Patrick. Thank you very much for
sharing this information.
Steve, W5IEM
On Thu, Nov 26, 2015, 11:06 PM Patrick STODDARD (WD9EWK/VA7EWK) <
amsat-bb@xxxxxx.xxx> wrote:
Hi!
After previously trying a couple of Wouxun dual-band HTs with AO-85 in the
past few weeks (KG-UV8D, KG-UV9D) on AO-85, I went back to a radio I
briefly tested before the AMSAT Symposium last month: the AnyTone TERMN-8R
2m/70cm FM HT. I didn't have much time to try it out then, but I gave it a
try this afternoon on a 48-degree AO-85 pass over the west coast. I used
the same settings in it that I did with the Wouxun KG-UV9D I tested last
weekend, so I could have a baseline to compare this radio against. I was
not surprised with the results.
------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2015 08:52:20 -0500
From: "Jeff" <jeff_griffin@xxxxxxx.xxx>
To: "Amsat" <amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx>
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] FLEX-5000A Radio with RX2 Option and External
Transverters Full Duplex Satellite Operation Confirmed
Message-ID: <508DA2BE0FF84028BE7F7D77C815D54B@xxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=response
Ed's question remains unanswered about the 6000 series. If Flex made a
fullduplex option available for the 6700 I would buy one in a minute. Recent
posts were saying that a fullduplex option is being developed. Maybe the
more we talk about this Flex will listen :-)
73 Jeff kb2m
-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Bordy, NJ1H
Sent: Friday, November 27, 2015 12:47 AM
To: amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx
Subject: [amsat-bb] FLEX-5000A Radio with RX2 Option and External
Transverters Full Duplex Satellite Operation Confirmed
What Mark states is absolutely true. I use my FLEX-5000A SDR with the
RX2 option for full duplex operations with external transverters. See my
qrz.com page for information on my satellite equipment.
In addition, I can call CQ, monitor my CQ frequency and at the same
time tune the downlink passband for other signals concurrently using the
MultiRX capability of the PowerSDR software. If I wish, I can direct the
CQ downlink to one ear and the other receive frequency to the other ear.
I can also view the satellite downlink's passband with the radio's
panadapter.
I also use the SATPC2 tracking program for computer controlled doppler
correction with my FLEX-5000A.
73,
Bill
NJ1H
On 11/25/2015 10:17 PM, Mark Lunday wrote:
> Edward Cole said "The larger question is whether the FLEX-6000 is a
> duplex
> radio? Earlier FLEX radios were not duplex. Some had two receivers but
> one
> could not transmit while receiving (ie operate duplex)."
>
> With respect, Sir, this is not accurate. I have a Flex 5000 with the
> second
> receiver installed, and absolutely can listen on the second receiver while
> transmitting on the first. It's a setting under GENERAL->RX2
>
>
> Mark Lunday, WD4ELG
> Greensboro, NC FM06be
> wd4elg@xxxx.xxx
> http://wd4elg.blogspot.com
>
>
------------------------------
Message: 10
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2015 14:49:38 +0000
From: "Patrick STODDARD (WD9EWK/VA7EWK)" <amsat-bb@xxxxxx.xxx>
To: "amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxxx <amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx>
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] AO-85 and AnyTone TERMN-8R, full-duplex -
report (long)
Message-ID:
<CAN6TEUdcZ9URyPEGWiWDetUP__NvnVowtrjp4TcCgTu7UQemLQ@xxxx.xxxxx.xxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Steve,
Thanks!
Not only has it been useful to hear the recommendations from
AMSAT on how to work AO-85, I think listing some radios that
can do the job full-duplex is also helpful. Many older radios
(most of which I don't own) should have no problems doing this
on higher passes, along with some newer radios. It is much
better to say "This radio can/can't work AO-85 full-duplex,
and here's why... ", as opposed to making blanket statements
unsupported by any testing - statements previously posted on
this mailing list about some radios, and on other lists and
discussion forums. With the AMSAT-BB archives open to the
public, this information is being archived, and can be picked
up using search engines as well.
73!
Patrick WD9EWK/VA7EWK
http://www.wd9ewk.net/
Twitter: @xxxxxx
On Fri, Nov 27, 2015 at 1:01 PM, Steve May <steve.w5iem@xxxxx.xxx> wrote:
> Another day, another awesome review by Patrick. Thank you very much for
> sharing this information.
>
> Steve, W5IEM
>
>
------------------------------
Message: 11
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2015 09:09:36 -0500
From: "David" <dwarnberg@xxxxxxx.xxx>
To: "'Amsat BB'" <amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx>
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Flex radio for satellites
Message-ID: <029e01d1291d$42643970$c72cac50$@xxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
FYI... FLEX RADIO's OFFICIAL RESPONSE... the 6000 series radio's..
https://community.flexradio.com/flexradio/topics/is-full-duplex-possible-on-
the-6000-series
I can also confirm, on my 6500 running SmartSDR 1.5.1 bottom of screen, 3
selections (TNF CWX and FDX) FDX toggles full duplex on and off..
" We will be introducing Full Duplex operation in v1.5 which is due out in
September. I'd like to spend a few minutes talking about the specifics.
Full Duplex will allow you to transmit and receive at the same time, but
there are limitations. The FLEX-6700 has the most capability in this area
and you will be able to transmit on one antenna and receive on up to two
different antennas at the same time. When you receive while you are
transmitting, there are a number of important considerations to ensure good
operation. Here are the considerations:
Isolation and overload: If your transmit energy enters the receiver at
sufficient levels with the preamp off (greater than about 5mW in the
FLEX-6300 and greater than about 10mW in the 6500 and 6700) or with the
preamp on (generally subtract the gain of the preamp from the provided
overload point), the radio receiver will overload. The FLEX-6000 Signature
Series radios have a "soft overload" where they will show signs of an
overload before going into a complete overload some 5-10dB later. The key
sign of a soft overload are numerous spurs in the panadapter. There is
40-100dB of isolation inherent in the radio itself. This will be added to
the isolation between your antennas and the total must be below the radio
overload point. More details will be provided, but here's a math example:
Transmitter: 100W = +50dBm
Overload on FLEX-6700 = +9dBm
Isolation from ANT1 to RXA: 90dB
Antenna isolation (at your shack): 40dB
+50 - 90 - 40 = -80dBm ... well below the +9dBm limit (89dB margin)
Transmitter: 100W = +50dBm
Overload on FLEX-6300 with 20dB preamp on: +7dBm - 20 = -13dBm
Isolation from ANT1 to ANT2: 40dB
Antenna isolation (at your shack): 30dB
+50 - 30 - 30 = -10dBm ... we are 3dB above the overload with the preamp on
We'll show you how to run these calculations, but you can see there is a
wide range of possibilities so you will need to do a little math to
determine if everything will work for you. Bandpass filters may also add
another 30dB or so of isolation of you are transmitting on one band and
receiving on another if your antenna selections are correct.
The radio will also protect itself if you put too much energy in the
receiver port and the radio will disconnect the antenna and alert you.
Receiver must be on different frequency from transmitter: The delay that
occurs during filtering is guaranteed to drive someone mad if the
transmitter and receiver are on the same frequency. For this reason, we
mute the slice that you are transmitting on so you will not hear your own
signal. This may seem counter intuitive at first, but it should fit most
use cases. For example, if you are chasing DX, you can create two slices, a
RX slice on the DX and a TX slice where you will TX up (generally) and when
you transmit, you can still hear the DX frequency. You will not hear under
your current transmit signal, unless you are in QSK in which case you will
hear in-between your transmissions.
Antennas: In all cases, you will need two antennas for full duplex. We will
not be transmitting and receiving on the same antenna.
This is an exciting and new capability for all FLEX-6000 radios, but it will
require a little planning and thought to be sure it will work at your
location. We hope this will bring hours of new operating fun!
=================
EDIT:
9/17/15 There are a few errors in the calculations above and rather than
just change the text, I'll explain the issue and provide the correct
information. There are really two paths from the transmitter to the
receiver. The first path goes from the transmitter to the transmit antenna,
to the receive antenna and into the receiver. The second path goes from the
transmitter directly to the receiver inside the radio. It is the latter
path that prevents most manufacturers from offering full duplex.
For the scenarios above, you should always look at the isolation in the
radio AND the isolation outside and take the lower of the two.
SCENARIO #1
Antenna Path:
Transmitter: 100W = +50dBm
Overload on FLEX-6700 = +9dBm
Antenna isolation (at your shack): 40dB
Receiver Preselector Filters: 20dB (assuming different bands)
+50 - 40 - 20 = -10dBm ... this is acceptable
Internal path:
Transmitter: 100W = +50dBm
Overload on FLEX-6700 = +9dBm
Isolation from ANT1 to RXA: 90dB
+50 - 90 = -40dBm ... this is also acceptable
So in scenario #1, the configuration will work with full-duplex
SCENARIO #2
Antenna Path:
Transmitter: 100W = +50dBm
Overload on FLEX-6300 with 20dB preamp on: +7dBm - 20 = -13dBm
Antenna isolation (at your shack): 30dB
Receiver Preselector Filters: 0dB (not available in FLEX-6300)
+50 - 30 - 0 = +20dBm ... we are 33dB above the overload with the preamp on.
More antenna isolation is needed
Internal path:
Transmitter: 100W = +50dBm
Overload on FLEX-6300 with 20dB preamp on: +7dBm - 20 = -13dBm
Isolation from ANT1 to ANT2: 40dB
+50 - 40 = +10dBm ... we are 23dB above the overload with the preamp on
In this case, full duplex may not be run.
More details will be made available in a white paper on Full Duplex and
SO2R. Hopefully I haven't made too many mistakes in the corrected text!
-----Original Message-----
From: AMSAT-BB [mailto:amsat-bb-bounces@xxxxx.xxxx On Behalf Of Richard Lawn
Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2015 8:51 AM
To: Amsat BB
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Flex radio for satellites
In answer to your questions, yes the Flex 5000A could be fully equipped with
2 rcvrs and the V/U module, however they discontinued it with the release of
their 6000 series radio. For satellites I've used the FT736f,
Ts2000 and ft847 and none compare to the ease of operation and rx quality of
the Flex5000A, which is why I'm holding on to mine.
But you could do what I'm now doing which is to use another radio capable of
V/U transmission on all modes as your uplink radio and use a 6000 series
radio with inexpensive down converters for rx. I then built a USB relay
controlled box that drives antenna switching relays. I found this to be much
cheaper than the other alternative which is to buy DEMI transverters or
possibly Elecraft. And you also end up with another really useful radio as a
backup for HF and other purposes at less cost than the 2 DEMI transverters.
I've used this arrangement before (minus the automated relay switching ) I
got my tricked out Flex5000. At that time I used the
TS2000 as uplink with a Flex 5000A for downlink wth converters and it worked
great! Stay tuned for exciting articles by Ron Parsons, W5RKN, and Dave
W0DHB in the AMSAT Journal about all this. What I'm doing is a spin off of
their ideas and working with them.
73
Rick, W2JAZ
--
Sent from Gmail Mobile
--
Sent from Gmail Mobile
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Message: 12
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2015 17:23:20 +0000
From: "Patrick STODDARD (WD9EWK/VA7EWK)" <amsat-bb@xxxxxx.xxx>
To: "amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxxx <amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx>
Subject: [amsat-bb] AO-85 and Puxing PX-UV973, full-duplex - report
(not so long)
Message-ID:
<CAN6TEUfYkWHZUJyJtd0dJBdDKBvk2WSstp1HtyC4hWWVkOVRGA@xxxx.xxxxx.xxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Hi!
Another day, another radio to try on AO-85. I woke up early, and decided to
try another HT on a high AO-85 pass starting at 1350 UTC. I wanted to see
if it could work the satellite full-duplex. The radio, this morning: the
Puxing PX-UV973. After working AO-85 with it this morning, my (low)
expectations were met.
The Puxing PX-UV973 has been on the market a couple of years. It is
supposed to handle cross-band full-duplex operation. This radio is still in
production, and I picked mine up from Amazon for about US$ 78. It is less
expensive than the other radios I have tested so far for full-duplex
operation on AO-85, and it shows.
First, the simple question. Can the PX-UV973 work AO-85 full-duplex?
Yes, more or less.
The radio comes with a duckie antenna, and a 7.4V/1200mAh battery pack. The
battery pack is smaller than the standard packs supplied with the other HTs
I have tested so far. It is also a little bit smaller than the other HTs.
As with the others, I did not program any memory channels to work AO-85. I
used the two VFOs, putting the uplink into the upper (A) VFO, and the
downlink into the lower (B) VFO. Uplink and downlink can be done from
either VFO.
I used these VFO-specific settings with this radio, similar to what I have
been using with the other HTs:
Uplink VFO:
SQL (005): 9
N/W (014): WIDE
T-CDC? (019): 67.0
STEP ? (020): 2.50
Downlink VFO:
SQL (005): 0
N/W (014): NARROW
STEP ? (020): 2.50
Another setting I had to enable for full-duplex operation was:
DUPLEX (031): ON
With the smaller tuning steps, I could get the AO-85 downlink lined up
easily on my PX-UV973. It was about 5 minutes into the pass before I made
my first QSO, with Glenn AA5PK in west Texas. A couple of minutes later, I
made another quick QSO with Ed N7EC north of the Phoenix area. The receive
audio while I transmitted was not really good - despite the satellite's
elevation heading up to 56 degrees at the midpoint of the pass. The HT was
able to operate full-duplex, but the other HTs I have tested with AO-85
have done much better. I could still hear myself through AO-85 a couple of
minutes after these QSOs, until the trees in a neighbor's yard started to
make it tougher to hear. The CW beacon from XW-2F was also starting to
overlap with the AO-85 downlink, also.
Using my SDR receive setup (SDRplay receiver, HDSDR on an 8-inch Windows 10
tablet, AMSAT-UK VHF crossed dipole), my transmitted audio sounded OK. Not
loud, but it was fine - similar to what I've heard from the other Chinese-
made HTs I have tested. I have uploaded the audio recording I made from the
HT, the RF recording from the SDR receive setup, and some photos, to my
Dropbox space. You can get those files at http://dropbox.wd9ewk.net/ - look
for the folder "20151127-AO85_Fox1A_XW2F-DM43". I also heard XW-2F near the
end of the AO-85 pass, and I let HDSDR continue writing the RF recording to
cover XW-2F until its LOS.
Since the PX-UV973 has been on the market for a couple of years, I did not
have high expectations for it working AO-85 full-duplex. I was not
surprised to see that it was a poor performer. If I had to rank this with
the other 3 Chinese-made HTs I previously tested, this one would be at the
bottom of the list by default:
1. Wouxun KG-UV9D
2. AnyTone TERMN-8R
3. Wouxun KG-UV8D
4. Puxing PX-UV973
Don't be drawn in by the low price of the PX-UV973. If you already have it,
it can be used as one radio of a two-radio setup, probably as the uplink
radio. Or use it for terrestrial repeaters, where it would probably serve
that purpose adequately. I now understand why one dealer was hesitant to
offer an opinion about this radio's performance for FM satellite work, when
I asked about it early last year.
73!
Patrick WD9EWK/VA7EWK
http://www.wd9ewk.net/
Twitter: @xxxxxx
------------------------------
Subject: Digest Footer
_______________________________________________
Sent via amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx.
AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide
without requiring membership. Opinions expressed
are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
AMSAT-NA.
Not an AMSAT member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
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End of AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol 10, Issue 368
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