| |
CX2SA > SATDIG 31.12.16 01:30l 1111 Lines 42149 Bytes #999 (0) @ WW
BID : AMSATBB11410
Read: GUEST
Subj: AMSAT-BB-digest V11 410
Path: IW8PGT<CX2SA
Sent: 161230/2323Z @:CX2SA.SAL.URY.SOAM #:61324 [Salto] FBB7.00e $:AMSATBB11410
From: CX2SA@CX2SA.SAL.URY.SOAM
To : SATDIG@WW
Today's Topics:
1. Re: Questions On Balloons With Amateur Packages (Jeff Moore)
2. Re: BY70-1 (Stephen E. Belter)
3. BY70-1 SATPC32 DOPPLER SQ FILE (jeffory broughton)
4. Re: ] BY70-1 SATPC32 DOPPLER SQ FILE (PA3GUO)
5. Re: Questions On Balloons With Amateur Packages (Joe)
6. Re: Questions On Balloons With Amateur Packages (Bill Dillon)
7. Re: BY70-1 (Jeff Griffin)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2016 12:50:33 -0800
From: Jeff Moore <tnetcenter@xxxxx.xxx>
To: AMSAT <amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx>
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Questions On Balloons With Amateur Packages
Message-ID:
<CALx_moQaGGhrL_CbdYT4uwU-Nb-MkSwrdHmWq2uCd_Mvb3mFcg@xxxx.xxxxx.xxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Interesting concept (mylar party balloons), but no, that is not what they
are doing. They're using a custom made mylar envelope that I suspect is
using very very thin mylar, this is a rather large envelope that you put
enough gas into to get it off the ground with a specific amount of lift.
The ones that have been flying are stabilized at around 50 to 60,000 ft.
and will hang at that altitude as long as the gas is contained within the
envelope eventually slowly lowering in altitude until they can't sustain
flight any longer.
AS the balloon rises, the gas expands and fills up more of the envelope,
the envelope should never actually get round like a traditional balloon
unless the volume of gas at altitude approaches the actual volume of the
envelope. At no time should you be able to get a pressure reading from
the balloon - hence why it is called a zero pressure envelope. Definitely
not a party balloon.
Jeff Moore -- KE7ACY
Near Space SIG - High Desert Amateur Radio Group
Bend, Oregon
On Fri, Dec 30, 2016 at 9:19 AM, Robert Bruninga <bruninga@xxxx.xxx> wrote:
> We tried zero pressure balloons (Mylar party balloons) but the max
> possible height was just 23,000 feet or so due to the weight of the
> balloon itself. It's a direct calculation. So we paralleled balloons,
> but still, no matter how many balloons you add, the math still comes out
> to asymptotically approach the same max altitude due to the mass of the
> balloon material itself and its volume.
>
> We did learn one other thing. With 5 under filled Mylar balloons to reach
> a cruise altitude around 23,000 feet (from memory?) we sent the cut-down
> command and nothing happened. (launching from Maryland is a guaranteed
> ocean landing unless you can come down in 65 miles or so)...
>
> On recovery, we found one balloon had burst, and so it hung DOWN from the
> other 4 and got all wrapped around the payload. So when we sent the
> cut-down command, it worked, but the entangled lines kept everything
> together.
>
> But now with only 4 of the 5 balloons providing lift, it came down at a
> very slow rate... about the same as the ascent rate... which means we
> chased it TWICE as far as intended.
>
> Oh the fun of discovery!
> The event is shown on our web page (Spycam mission starts about 30% down
> the page) http://aprs.org/balloons.html
>
> Bob, Wb4APR
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: AMSAT-BB [mailto:amsat-bb-bounces@xxxxx.xxxx On Behalf Of Richard
> Tejera
> Sent: Friday, December 23, 2016 3:08 PM
> To: Dave Marthouse; 'AMSAT'
> Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Questions On Balloons With Amateur Packages
>
> Dave,
>
> Knowing the weight of the payload, they will fill it with enough gas to
> become neutrally buoyant at the target altitude.
>
> If altitude is the goal, enough gas will be filled to take it to an
> altitude that will exceed the Burt diameter.
>
> Rick Tejera K7TEJ
> Saguaro Astronomy Club
> www.SaguaroAstro.org
> Thunderbird Amateur Radio Club
> www.w7tbc.org
>
> On December 23, 2016, at 11:01, Dave Marthouse <dmarthouse@xxxxx.xxx>
> wrote:
>
> I have seen posts from time to time on the BB about balloons with amateur
> radio payloads on them.
>
>
> I've got a question regarding the missions that carry payloads around
> the world. What stops the balloons from going up until they explode do
> to the high altitude. How are the packages kept from doing this to
> achieve such long distance flights?
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Dave Marthouse N2AAM
> dmarthouse@xxxxx.xxx
>
> _______________________________________________
> Sent via AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions
> expressed
> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
> AMSAT-NA.
> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
> Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
> _______________________________________________
> Sent via AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions
> expressed
> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
> AMSAT-NA.
> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
> Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
> _______________________________________________
> Sent via AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions
> expressed
> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
> AMSAT-NA.
> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
> Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2016 21:00:49 +0000
From: "Stephen E. Belter" <seb@xxxxxx.xxx>
To: Mark Johns <mjohns@xxxxxx.xxx>, AMSAT-BB <AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx>
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] BY70-1
Message-ID: <D48C2676.7BDBC%seb@xxxxxx.xxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Mark,
I also get the ?E/A-Fehler 105.? error message when I add BY70-1 to a
satellite group in SatPC32. Other people don?t have the problem.
The error message (in German) means I/O Error 105 in the Delphi
programming environment, which I believe is an error writing to a file.
What I can?t yet answer is how to fix the problem. We may have a file
permissions problem.
Anybody have a solution or know where to look?
73, Steve N9IP
--
Steve Belter, seb@xxxxxx.xxx
On 12/30/16, 1:20 PM, "AMSAT-BB on behalf of Mark Johns via AMSAT-BB"
<amsat-bb-bounces@xxxxx.xxx on behalf of amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx> wrote:
>When I put keps for BY70-1 into SatPC32 (either yesterday's keps or
>today's), it pops up a box that says, "E/A - Fehler 105." SatPC32 freezes
>up.
>
>Does anyone know what this error code means? Anyone else getting it?
>
>--
>
>Mark D. Johns, K?MDJ Decorah, Iowa USA EN43
>-----------------------------------------------
>"Heaven goes by favor; if it went by merit,
> you would stay out and your dog would go in."
> ---Mark Twain
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Greg D <ko6th.greg@xxxxx.xxx>
>To: AMSAT-BB <AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx>
>Sent: Friday, December 30, 2016 12:43 PM
>Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] BY70-1
>
>18:20 pass not as strong as prior passes. Only got a few moments of
>full-quieting audio. Contacts with W5ACM and KC7M. As before, the
>second half of the pass was much better (nothing heard at all until just
>before indicated TCA), so perhaps the bird is late compared to the
>Keps. Worked it almost into the ground before LOS. I'm using
>2016-083C, updated from Celestrak right before the pass. Playing with
>polarization seemed to help, but I'm assuming the bird's antennas are
>linear, right? Possibly my relays are getting dirty.
>
>One question, for scale... We know that the satellite will not last
>"long", given it's crippled orbit. How long? Days? Weeks? Months?
>
>Greg KO6TH
>
>
>Nico Janssen wrote:
>>
>> If you are still using yesterday's TLE set, then you will indeed find
>> that BY70-1 is now about half a minute earlier. The problem is that
>> the TLEs for this satellite are not stable yet in the first days after
>> the
>> launch. The right value for e.g. the decay rate has not yet been
>> established. So for the time being you need to make sure you use the
>> most recent TLE set that is available.
>>
>> By the way, the two SuperView satellites are now using their own
>> propulsion system to increase their altitude, preventing an early decay.
>> As BY70-1 does not have any propulsion, it is stuck in its low orbit.
>>
>> 73,
>> Nico PA0DLO
>>
>>
>> On 30-12-16 13:42, PY5LF wrote:
>>> Hi
>>> We had a low pass over here minutes ago and i felt the keps BY70-1 are
>>> wrong .
>>> I start to hear 25 seconds before . Does anyone feels the same ?
>>> 73
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Sent via AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
>>> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
>>> Opinions expressed
>>> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views
>>> of AMSAT-NA.
>>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
>>> program!
>>> Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Sent via AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
>> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
>> Opinions expressed
>> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views
>> of AMSAT-NA.
>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
>> program!
>> Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>
>_______________________________________________
>Sent via AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
>to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
>Opinions expressed
>are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
>AMSAT-NA.
>Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
>Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>_______________________________________________
>Sent via AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
>to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
>Opinions expressed
>are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
>AMSAT-NA.
>Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
>Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2016 16:25:44 -0500
From: jeffory broughton <jefforybroughton@xxxxx.xxx>
To: amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx
Subject: [amsat-bb] BY70-1 SATPC32 DOPPLER SQ FILE
Message-ID:
<CACm2je3brYjROVvr970C8i62Hj4wG=g=kk=TdASGW6eD9oF2DQ@xxxx.xxxxx.xxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
What is everyone using for the doppler Sq file for satpc32 for the BY70-1
SAT ?
THANKS jeff WB8RJY
jeff broughton
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2016 22:41:05 +0100
From: "PA3GUO" <pa3guo@xxxxxxx.xx>
To: <amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx>
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] ] BY70-1 SATPC32 DOPPLER SQ FILE
Message-ID: <000c01d262e5$6c808300$45818900$@xxxxxxx.xx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
BY70-1,436200,145920,FM,FM,NOR,0,0,FM
Henk
What is everyone using for the doppler Sq file for satpc32 for the
BY70-1
SAT ?
THANKS jeff WB8RJY
jeff broughton
________________________________________
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2016 16:21:32 -0600
From: Joe <nss@xxx.xxx>
To: amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Questions On Balloons With Amateur Packages
Message-ID: <a0cb0bdc-1895-874d-aa5f-b5cad9e68e4f@xxx.xxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
Jeff and the others.
Both are close but also not totally correct either.
Bob has the correct theory about size and max altitude.
And Jeff is also correct about the home made custom envelope.
BUT......
These are NOT zero pressure balloons.
They are acting as super pressure balloons.
They are sealed tight, And Must be perfectly tight as they say "Bubble"
tight.
Any leak at all, and the flight will not even last 24 hours.
As Jeff said "they put enough gas into to get it off the ground with a
specific amount of lift. "
Very true and that is the key to these flights, they are talking lifts
level in the amount of grams, not even a single ounce. In like the big
latex flights that we all have done. My group has done 60+ of them some
fill lifts is the mounts of pounds even more than the payload weighs.
And of course all those flight last 90 to 120 minutes mostly.
Now again as Jeff Said, "they put enough gas into to get it off the
ground with a specific amount of lift. "
The amount of lifts are minimal. and as any balloon flight that happens
once you have positive lift you WILL have positive lift until something
happens. PERIOD!
In ANY balloon the gas expands to equalize the pressures inside vs
outside the balloon. Just like ANY and EVERY balloon does.
But once the balloon is as big as it can get the inside volume can not
get any greater, One of Three things happens.
1- The internal pressure just like a party balloon or the 30 foot
diameter latex balloon, if you put too much inside more volume that the
balloon can hold, the envelope ruptures and it's done.
2- The Zero pressure balloon behaves in the exact same way expands as
gasses expand. BUT, once it is full and can not expand any more, instead
of rupturing, built into the balloon is a special valve that lets some
of the gas out, so the internal pressure can not build up high enough to
cause the balloon to rupture. Eventually enough gas is released and the
balloon does not go any higher and it floats somewhat like these long
duration flights have been. BUT not the same. because these zero
pressure balloons. Once the sun goes down they loose that energy, gasses
shrink and the balloon comes down. The ONLY was a zero pressure balloon
can stay aloft is to drop about 10% of it's weight every sundown.
3- Now this is how these flights are happening, they are operating in
the world of "Super Pressure Balloons" Just on a tiny tiny scale.
Now how this system works.
In reality the numbers used are incredibly small and stretched out
to several decimal places. But for explanation purposes here I will use
large and rounded off whole numbers just to make it clearer and less
number cumbersome.
At sea level or close to it, just enough lifting gas is injected
into the Balloon. Just enough to give the few grams of lift.
But for easier to understand Say In this case say Free lift will be 8
ounces.
So in other words when the lifting balloon is filled to the correct
amount and everything is attached in the flight train, there is an
excess of 8 ounces of lift. ( like I said these numbers are extremely
larger than the real ones.
Say the volume of the balloon when full is 160 cubic feet. We
calculate that if we put in 16 cubic feet on the ground, once it reaches
60,000 feet it has expanded and filled the balloon fully. Remember
these numbers are all wrong and are not even close. It is just to
explain how the system works.
Now is when the magic starts. As with any normal balloon as it
rises the atmospheric pressure and density drops. And any regular
balloon also expands to equal out the pressure and also overall density.
But this is where this system is different and is cool.
Say at 60,000 feet, the density of air is 0.1 ounce per cubic foot.
So, In this balloon, it is contains a volume of 160 cubic feet that
weighs 16 ounces. I know it is less because it is a lifting gas, but the
theory is all the same.
And since it has a volume of 160 cubic feet, it is also displacing 160
cubic feet of air outside the balloon that also weighs 16 ounces.. 0.1
ounce per cubic foot.
OK, we still have positive lift of 8 ounces and the flight train
continues to rise. It is rising into less dense air of course.
So now say it is at 70,000 feet.
Pressure has dropped, and the air surrounding the balloon is less dense.
BUT, the balloon envelope could not stretch any more and did not allow
the 160 cubic feet of "GAS" inside the balloon to equalize the pressure
and expand.
The 160 cubic feet of gas inside the balloon, is still having the
properties of the gas had at 60,000 feet. I.E.: It still weighs 16 ounces.
But the air at 70,000 feet outside the pumpkin has expanded and
became less dense.
It is now having a density of 0.05 oz per cubic foot.
So The balloon is still displacing 160 cubic feet of the atmosphere.
But this atmosphere at 70,000 feet weighs less than it did at 60,000
feet. 0.05 oz per cubic foot. So 0.05 X 160 cubic feet = 8 ounces. And
now because of this, the whole flight train stops rising because the
train has magically become 8 ounces heavier than it was at 60,000 feet!
The gas in the balloon still weighs 16 ounces, but the air it is
displacing only weighs 8 ounces, so the balloon is 8 ounces heavier
now. How cool is that?! And that is it! That's how it works. Pretty
cool huh?
And thats how these balloons are staying up there for these incredible
times.
Joe WB9SB
Sig
The Original Rolling Ball Clock
Idle Tyme
Idle-Tyme.com
http://www.idle-tyme.com
On 12/30/2016 2:50 PM, Jeff Moore wrote:
> Interesting concept (mylar party balloons), but no, that is not what they
> are doing. They're using a custom made mylar envelope that I suspect is
> using very very thin mylar, this is a rather large envelope that you put
> enough gas into to get it off the ground with a specific amount of lift.
> The ones that have been flying are stabilized at around 50 to 60,000 ft.
> and will hang at that altitude as long as the gas is contained within the
> envelope eventually slowly lowering in altitude until they can't sustain
> flight any longer.
>
> AS the balloon rises, the gas expands and fills up more of the envelope,
> the envelope should never actually get round like a traditional balloon
> unless the volume of gas at altitude approaches the actual volume of the
> envelope. At no time should you be able to get a pressure reading from
> the balloon - hence why it is called a zero pressure envelope. Definitely
> not a party balloon.
>
> Jeff Moore -- KE7ACY
> Near Space SIG - High Desert Amateur Radio Group
> Bend, Oregon
>
> On Fri, Dec 30, 2016 at 9:19 AM, Robert Bruninga <bruninga@xxxx.xxx> wrote:
>
>> We tried zero pressure balloons (Mylar party balloons) but the max
>> possible height was just 23,000 feet or so due to the weight of the
>> balloon itself. It's a direct calculation. So we paralleled balloons,
>> but still, no matter how many balloons you add, the math still comes out
>> to asymptotically approach the same max altitude due to the mass of the
>> balloon material itself and its volume.
>>
>> We did learn one other thing. With 5 under filled Mylar balloons to reach
>> a cruise altitude around 23,000 feet (from memory?) we sent the cut-down
>> command and nothing happened. (launching from Maryland is a guaranteed
>> ocean landing unless you can come down in 65 miles or so)...
>>
>> On recovery, we found one balloon had burst, and so it hung DOWN from the
>> other 4 and got all wrapped around the payload. So when we sent the
>> cut-down command, it worked, but the entangled lines kept everything
>> together.
>>
>> But now with only 4 of the 5 balloons providing lift, it came down at a
>> very slow rate... about the same as the ascent rate... which means we
>> chased it TWICE as far as intended.
>>
>> Oh the fun of discovery!
>> The event is shown on our web page (Spycam mission starts about 30% down
>> the page) http://aprs.org/balloons.html
>>
>> Bob, Wb4APR
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: AMSAT-BB [mailto:amsat-bb-bounces@xxxxx.xxxx On Behalf Of Richard
>> Tejera
>> Sent: Friday, December 23, 2016 3:08 PM
>> To: Dave Marthouse; 'AMSAT'
>> Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Questions On Balloons With Amateur Packages
>>
>> Dave,
>>
>> Knowing the weight of the payload, they will fill it with enough gas to
>> become neutrally buoyant at the target altitude.
>>
>> If altitude is the goal, enough gas will be filled to take it to an
>> altitude that will exceed the Burt diameter.
>>
>> Rick Tejera K7TEJ
>> Saguaro Astronomy Club
>> www.SaguaroAstro.org
>> Thunderbird Amateur Radio Club
>> www.w7tbc.org
>>
>> On December 23, 2016, at 11:01, Dave Marthouse <dmarthouse@xxxxx.xxx>
>> wrote:
>>
>> I have seen posts from time to time on the BB about balloons with amateur
>> radio payloads on them.
>>
>>
>> I've got a question regarding the missions that carry payloads around
>> the world. What stops the balloons from going up until they explode do
>> to the high altitude. How are the packages kept from doing this to
>> achieve such long distance flights?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Dave Marthouse N2AAM
>> dmarthouse@xxxxx.xxx
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Sent via AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
>> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions
>> expressed
>> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
>> AMSAT-NA.
>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
>> Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>> _______________________________________________
>> Sent via AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
>> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions
>> expressed
>> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
>> AMSAT-NA.
>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
>> Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>> _______________________________________________
>> Sent via AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
>> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions
>> expressed
>> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
>> AMSAT-NA.
>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
>> Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Sent via AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions
expressed
> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
AMSAT-NA.
> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
> Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>
>
>
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2016 16:50:31 -0600
From: Bill Dillon <bill.g.dillon@xxxxx.xxx>
To: AMSAT <amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx>
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Questions On Balloons With Amateur Packages
Message-ID:
<CADnLNZwL5+maH_r2+1W4zhdEkSHnhirGac9Ai=M23Pt2K7M+3g@xxxx.xxxxx.xxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Excellent description of the physics, Joe. I think the really incredible
thing is how impermeable these balloon skins must be to circle the earth
multiple times and remain aloft for weeks or even months!
73 de Bill, KG5FQX
On Fri, Dec 30, 2016 at 4:21 PM, Joe <nss@xxx.xxx> wrote:
> Jeff and the others.
> Both are close but also not totally correct either.
>
> Bob has the correct theory about size and max altitude.
>
> And Jeff is also correct about the home made custom envelope.
>
> BUT......
>
> These are NOT zero pressure balloons.
>
> They are acting as super pressure balloons.
>
> They are sealed tight, And Must be perfectly tight as they say "Bubble"
> tight.
> Any leak at all, and the flight will not even last 24 hours.
>
> As Jeff said "they put enough gas into to get it off the ground with a
> specific amount of lift. "
>
> Very true and that is the key to these flights, they are talking lifts
> level in the amount of grams, not even a single ounce. In like the big
> latex flights that we all have done. My group has done 60+ of them some
> fill lifts is the mounts of pounds even more than the payload weighs. And
> of course all those flight last 90 to 120 minutes mostly.
>
> Now again as Jeff Said, "they put enough gas into to get it off the ground
> with a specific amount of lift. "
>
> The amount of lifts are minimal. and as any balloon flight that happens
> once you have positive lift you WILL have positive lift until something
> happens. PERIOD!
>
> In ANY balloon the gas expands to equalize the pressures inside vs outside
> the balloon. Just like ANY and EVERY balloon does.
>
> But once the balloon is as big as it can get the inside volume can not get
> any greater, One of Three things happens.
>
> 1- The internal pressure just like a party balloon or the 30 foot diameter
> latex balloon, if you put too much inside more volume that the balloon can
> hold, the envelope ruptures and it's done.
>
> 2- The Zero pressure balloon behaves in the exact same way expands as
> gasses expand. BUT, once it is full and can not expand any more, instead of
> rupturing, built into the balloon is a special valve that lets some of the
> gas out, so the internal pressure can not build up high enough to cause the
> balloon to rupture. Eventually enough gas is released and the balloon does
> not go any higher and it floats somewhat like these long duration flights
> have been. BUT not the same. because these zero pressure balloons. Once the
> sun goes down they loose that energy, gasses shrink and the balloon comes
> down. The ONLY was a zero pressure balloon can stay aloft is to drop about
> 10% of it's weight every sundown.
>
> 3- Now this is how these flights are happening, they are operating in the
> world of "Super Pressure Balloons" Just on a tiny tiny scale.
>
> Now how this system works.
>
> In reality the numbers used are incredibly small and stretched out to
> several decimal places. But for explanation purposes here I will use large
> and rounded off whole numbers just to make it clearer and less number
> cumbersome.
>
> At sea level or close to it, just enough lifting gas is injected into
> the Balloon. Just enough to give the few grams of lift.
>
> But for easier to understand Say In this case say Free lift will be 8
> ounces.
>
> So in other words when the lifting balloon is filled to the correct
> amount and everything is attached in the flight train, there is an excess
> of 8 ounces of lift. ( like I said these numbers are extremely larger than
> the real ones.
>
> Say the volume of the balloon when full is 160 cubic feet. We
> calculate that if we put in 16 cubic feet on the ground, once it reaches
> 60,000 feet it has expanded and filled the balloon fully. Remember these
> numbers are all wrong and are not even close. It is just to explain how the
> system works.
>
> Now is when the magic starts. As with any normal balloon as it rises
> the atmospheric pressure and density drops. And any regular balloon also
> expands to equal out the pressure and also overall density. But this is
> where this system is different and is cool.
>
> Say at 60,000 feet, the density of air is 0.1 ounce per cubic foot.
> So, In this balloon, it is contains a volume of 160 cubic feet that weighs
> 16 ounces. I know it is less because it is a lifting gas, but the theory is
> all the same.
>
>
> And since it has a volume of 160 cubic feet, it is also displacing 160
> cubic feet of air outside the balloon that also weighs 16 ounces.. 0.1
> ounce per cubic foot.
>
> OK, we still have positive lift of 8 ounces and the flight train
> continues to rise. It is rising into less dense air of course.
>
> So now say it is at 70,000 feet.
>
> Pressure has dropped, and the air surrounding the balloon is less dense.
>
> BUT, the balloon envelope could not stretch any more and did not allow the
> 160 cubic feet of "GAS" inside the balloon to equalize the pressure and
> expand.
>
> The 160 cubic feet of gas inside the balloon, is still having the
> properties of the gas had at 60,000 feet. I.E.: It still weighs 16 ounces.
>
> But the air at 70,000 feet outside the pumpkin has expanded and
> became less dense.
>
> It is now having a density of 0.05 oz per cubic foot.
>
> So The balloon is still displacing 160 cubic feet of the atmosphere.
>
> But this atmosphere at 70,000 feet weighs less than it did at 60,000
> feet. 0.05 oz per cubic foot. So 0.05 X 160 cubic feet = 8 ounces. And now
> because of this, the whole flight train stops rising because the train has
> magically become 8 ounces heavier than it was at 60,000 feet!
>
> The gas in the balloon still weighs 16 ounces, but the air it is
> displacing only weighs 8 ounces, so the balloon is 8 ounces heavier now.
> How cool is that?! And that is it! That's how it works. Pretty cool huh?
>
> And thats how these balloons are staying up there for these incredible
> times.
>
> Joe WB9SB
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Sig
> The Original Rolling Ball Clock
> Idle Tyme
> Idle-Tyme.com
> http://www.idle-tyme.com
>
> On 12/30/2016 2:50 PM, Jeff Moore wrote:
>
>> Interesting concept (mylar party balloons), but no, that is not what they
>> are doing. They're using a custom made mylar envelope that I suspect is
>> using very very thin mylar, this is a rather large envelope that you put
>> enough gas into to get it off the ground with a specific amount of lift.
>> The ones that have been flying are stabilized at around 50 to 60,000 ft.
>> and will hang at that altitude as long as the gas is contained within the
>> envelope eventually slowly lowering in altitude until they can't sustain
>> flight any longer.
>>
>> AS the balloon rises, the gas expands and fills up more of the envelope,
>> the envelope should never actually get round like a traditional balloon
>> unless the volume of gas at altitude approaches the actual volume of the
>> envelope. At no time should you be able to get a pressure reading from
>> the balloon - hence why it is called a zero pressure envelope.
>> Definitely
>> not a party balloon.
>>
>> Jeff Moore -- KE7ACY
>> Near Space SIG - High Desert Amateur Radio Group
>> Bend, Oregon
>>
>> On Fri, Dec 30, 2016 at 9:19 AM, Robert Bruninga <bruninga@xxxx.xxx>
>> wrote:
>>
>> We tried zero pressure balloons (Mylar party balloons) but the max
>>> possible height was just 23,000 feet or so due to the weight of the
>>> balloon itself. It's a direct calculation. So we paralleled balloons,
>>> but still, no matter how many balloons you add, the math still comes out
>>> to asymptotically approach the same max altitude due to the mass of the
>>> balloon material itself and its volume.
>>>
>>> We did learn one other thing. With 5 under filled Mylar balloons to
>>> reach
>>> a cruise altitude around 23,000 feet (from memory?) we sent the cut-down
>>> command and nothing happened. (launching from Maryland is a guaranteed
>>> ocean landing unless you can come down in 65 miles or so)...
>>>
>>> On recovery, we found one balloon had burst, and so it hung DOWN from the
>>> other 4 and got all wrapped around the payload. So when we sent the
>>> cut-down command, it worked, but the entangled lines kept everything
>>> together.
>>>
>>> But now with only 4 of the 5 balloons providing lift, it came down at a
>>> very slow rate... about the same as the ascent rate... which means we
>>> chased it TWICE as far as intended.
>>>
>>> Oh the fun of discovery!
>>> The event is shown on our web page (Spycam mission starts about 30% down
>>> the page) http://aprs.org/balloons.html
>>>
>>> Bob, Wb4APR
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: AMSAT-BB [mailto:amsat-bb-bounces@xxxxx.xxxx On Behalf Of Richard
>>> Tejera
>>> Sent: Friday, December 23, 2016 3:08 PM
>>> To: Dave Marthouse; 'AMSAT'
>>> Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Questions On Balloons With Amateur Packages
>>>
>>> Dave,
>>>
>>> Knowing the weight of the payload, they will fill it with enough gas to
>>> become neutrally buoyant at the target altitude.
>>>
>>> If altitude is the goal, enough gas will be filled to take it to an
>>> altitude that will exceed the Burt diameter.
>>>
>>> Rick Tejera K7TEJ
>>> Saguaro Astronomy Club
>>> www.SaguaroAstro.org
>>> Thunderbird Amateur Radio Club
>>> www.w7tbc.org
>>>
>>> On December 23, 2016, at 11:01, Dave Marthouse <dmarthouse@xxxxx.xxx>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> I have seen posts from time to time on the BB about balloons with amateur
>>> radio payloads on them.
>>>
>>>
>>> I've got a question regarding the missions that carry payloads around
>>> the world. What stops the balloons from going up until they explode do
>>> to the high altitude. How are the packages kept from doing this to
>>> achieve such long distance flights?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Dave Marthouse N2AAM
>>> dmarthouse@xxxxx.xxx
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Sent via AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
>>> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
>>> Opinions
>>> expressed
>>> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
>>> AMSAT-NA.
>>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
>>> program!
>>> Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Sent via AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
>>> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
>>> Opinions
>>> expressed
>>> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
>>> AMSAT-NA.
>>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
>>> program!
>>> Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Sent via AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
>>> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
>>> Opinions
>>> expressed
>>> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
>>> AMSAT-NA.
>>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
>>> program!
>>> Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>> Sent via AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
>> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
>> Opinions expressed
>> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
>> AMSAT-NA.
>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
>> Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>>
>>
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Sent via AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions
> expressed
> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
> AMSAT-NA.
> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
> Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2016 18:21:06 -0500
From: "Jeff Griffin" <jeff_griffin@xxxxxxx.xxx>
To: "'Stephen E. Belter'" <seb@xxxxxx.xxx>, "'Mark Johns'"
<mjohns@xxxxxx.xxx>, "'AMSAT-BB'" <AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx>
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] BY70-1
Message-ID: <02d101d262f3$6614f470$323edd50$@xxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
I was hoping someone with a better memory, or Erich would chime in on this
but here goes. I would first add this line to the Doppler.SQF file...
BY70-1,436200,145920,FM,FM,Nor,0,0,Voice V/U
Then add this line to the subTone.SQF file...
BY70-1,67.0,$3F,1 (for an Icom, I'm not sure of other rigs) RTFM
Then I download the keps from nasa.all (I was fudging them in for a day) and
you should be good to go when you add BY70-1
73 Jeff kb2m
-----Original Message-----
From: AMSAT-BB [mailto:amsat-bb-bounces@xxxxx.xxxx On Behalf Of Stephen E.
Belter
Sent: Friday, December 30, 2016 4:01 PM
To: Mark Johns; AMSAT-BB
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] BY70-1
Mark,
I also get the ?E/A-Fehler 105.? error message when I add BY70-1 to a
satellite group in SatPC32. Other people don?t have the problem.
The error message (in German) means I/O Error 105 in the Delphi programming
environment, which I believe is an error writing to a file.
What I can?t yet answer is how to fix the problem. We may have a file
permissions problem.
Anybody have a solution or know where to look?
73, Steve N9IP
--
Steve Belter, seb@xxxxxx.xxx
On 12/30/16, 1:20 PM, "AMSAT-BB on behalf of Mark Johns via AMSAT-BB"
<amsat-bb-bounces@xxxxx.xxx on behalf of amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx> wrote:
>When I put keps for BY70-1 into SatPC32 (either yesterday's keps or
>today's), it pops up a box that says, "E/A - Fehler 105." SatPC32
>freezes up.
>
>Does anyone know what this error code means? Anyone else getting it?
>
>--
>
>Mark D. Johns, K?MDJ Decorah, Iowa USA EN43
>-----------------------------------------------
>"Heaven goes by favor; if it went by merit,
> you would stay out and your dog would go in."
> ---Mark Twain
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Greg D <ko6th.greg@xxxxx.xxx>
>To: AMSAT-BB <AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx>
>Sent: Friday, December 30, 2016 12:43 PM
>Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] BY70-1
>
>18:20 pass not as strong as prior passes. Only got a few moments of
>full-quieting audio. Contacts with W5ACM and KC7M. As before, the
>second half of the pass was much better (nothing heard at all until
>just before indicated TCA), so perhaps the bird is late compared to the
>Keps. Worked it almost into the ground before LOS. I'm using
>2016-083C, updated from Celestrak right before the pass. Playing with
>polarization seemed to help, but I'm assuming the bird's antennas are
>linear, right? Possibly my relays are getting dirty.
>
>One question, for scale... We know that the satellite will not last
>"long", given it's crippled orbit. How long? Days? Weeks? Months?
>
>Greg KO6TH
>
>
>Nico Janssen wrote:
>>
>> If you are still using yesterday's TLE set, then you will indeed find
>> that BY70-1 is now about half a minute earlier. The problem is that
>> the TLEs for this satellite are not stable yet in the first days
>> after the launch. The right value for e.g. the decay rate has not yet
>> been established. So for the time being you need to make sure you use
>> the most recent TLE set that is available.
>>
>> By the way, the two SuperView satellites are now using their own
>> propulsion system to increase their altitude, preventing an early decay.
>> As BY70-1 does not have any propulsion, it is stuck in its low orbit.
>>
>> 73,
>> Nico PA0DLO
>>
>>
>> On 30-12-16 13:42, PY5LF wrote:
>>> Hi
>>> We had a low pass over here minutes ago and i felt the keps BY70-1
>>> are wrong .
>>> I start to hear 25 seconds before . Does anyone feels the same ?
>>> 73
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Sent via AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum
>>> available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring
membership.
>>> Opinions expressed
>>> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official
>>> views of AMSAT-NA.
>>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
>>> program!
>>> Subscription settings:
>>> http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Sent via AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
>> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
>> Opinions expressed
>> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views
>> of AMSAT-NA.
>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
>> program!
>> Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>
>_______________________________________________
>Sent via AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
>to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
>Opinions expressed
>are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views
>of AMSAT-NA.
>Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
>Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>_______________________________________________
>Sent via AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
>to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
>Opinions expressed
>are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views
>of AMSAT-NA.
>Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
>Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
_______________________________________________
Sent via AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all
interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions
expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official
views of AMSAT-NA.
Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
------------------------------
Subject: Digest Footer
_______________________________________________
Sent via amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx.
AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide
without requiring membership. Opinions expressed
are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
AMSAT-NA.
Not an AMSAT member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
------------------------------
End of AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol 11, Issue 410
*****************************************
Read previous mail | Read next mail
| |
