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To : SATDIG@WW
Today's Topics:
1. Amsat-bb Comments (ingejack@xxx.xxxx
2. Re: Thoughts on ISS packet switch back to 145.825 MHz (long)
(Stefan Wagener)
3. Re: Thoughts on ISS packet switch back to 145.825 MHz (long)
(Mike Diehl)
4. Re: Thoughts on ISS packet switch back to 145.825 MHz (long)
(Stefan Wagener)
5. Re: Thoughts on ISS packet switch back to 145.825 MHz (long)
(Mike Diehl)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2017 11:54:37 -0700
From: <ingejack@xxx.xxx>
To: qrz@xxxxxx.xxx
Cc: amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx
Subject: [amsat-bb] Amsat-bb Comments
Message-ID: <20170416145437.77DZL.280377.imail@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Just read your comments on the return to 145.825. I AGREE 100 %.. When it
was on 437.550 stations had a chance to make some contacts. Now that it is
back on 145.825 the satellite is saturated with stations almost eliminating
the possibility of making a good contact through the digipeater. Today is
Easter Sunday and on the 1815 UTC pass through middle America it was like
working a pileup on 20 meters. Hopefully over time , we will see a reduction
in Activity on the ISS packet system and more trying to work NO84 and NO44 .
JACK-KC7MG
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2017 16:46:06 -0500
From: Stefan Wagener <wageners@xxxxx.xxx>
To: Gabriel Zeifman <gabrielzeifman@xxxxx.xxx>
Cc: AMSAT BB <amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx>
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Thoughts on ISS packet switch back to 145.825
MHz (long)
Message-ID:
<CAKu8kHB4aXBhKvTSRR4=iO0em88R+GkCeXdYF_0Gijbf64JMdQ@xxxx.xxxxx.xxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Hi Gabe,
With all respect I very much disagree. The amateur radio equipment on the
ISS is an experiment! Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. Based on
your location, equipment and ISS position you will* NOT* decode every
packet, and yes that includes your own packets. So folks will be trying
again and that's okay. *They don't become a source of QRM* on the ISS since
the ISS will only re-transmit if its a good packet. They are exercising
their license privileges to work through the ISS and for many having that
first digipeat after many tries is their success story and we welcome that.
73, Stefan, VE4NSA
On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 1:43 PM, Gabriel Zeifman <gabrielzeifman@xxxxx.xxx>
wrote:
> I think the golden rule of working all sats applies to ISS as well: if you
> can't hear (or decode), don't transmit! It's easy to become a source of QRM
> if you keep transmitting in the blind when you can't hear.
>
> 73,
> Gabe
> NJ7H
>
> > On Apr 16, 2017, at 1:28 PM, Robert Bruninga <bruninga@xxxx.xxx> wrote:
> >
> > I agree completely. ISS digipeting should be for LIVE operators. Or for
> > LIVE things.... (a student experimental ocean going buoy for example)...
> >
> > NOT for non-moving-fixed egos...
> >
> > Bob, WB4APR
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: AMSAT-BB [mailto:amsat-bb-bounces@xxxxx.xxxx On Behalf Of Patrick
> > STODDARD (WD9EWK/VA7EWK)
> > Sent: Saturday, April 15, 2017 7:51 PM
> > To: amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx
> > Subject: [amsat-bb] Thoughts on ISS packet switch back to 145.825 MHz
> > (long)
> >
> > Hi!
> >
> > Earlier today, I tweeted a quick comment about what I saw on the ISS
> > 145.825 MHz digipeater just after 1900 UTC this afternoon. Since tweets
> > are limited in length, I'm posting a longer message here...
> >
> > In the past few weeks, once word got out that a replacement for the
> failed
> > Ericsson VHF HT on the ISS was being sent up to the station, many were
> > anxiously looking forward to seeing the ISS digipeater move from 437.550
> > MHz back to 145.825 MHz, where it had been until the old radio's failure
> > in mid-October 2016. I understood that many would welcome this change,
> but
> > I was not jumping up and down with excitement. Unfortunately, after
> seeing
> > the activity on the ISS digipeater in the past day or so since the
> > replacement VHF radio was put on 145.825 MHz, my worries have been
> > confirmed.
> >
> > For many, the move to 437.550 MHz meant many stations that could easily
> > work 145.825 MHz would have to change. Whether it was a different antenna
> > for the 70cm band or dealing with Doppler with the 437.550 MHz frequency,
> > almost all of the unattended stations that had been present on the
> 145.825
> > MHz frequency were gone. If you wanted to use the ISS digipeater to work
> > other stations, this was a great opportunity. Many stations using
> > APRS-ready HTs and mobile transceivers were showing up, using a group of
> > memory channels to compensate for Doppler, and were making contacts. Some
> > fixed stations, including those already capable of satellite operating,
> > were also showing up. Even on the busier passes, the
> > 437.550 MHz always seemed to be clear of the clutter from the unattended
> > stations that previously inhabited 145.825 MHz.
> >
> > Fast forward to yesterday (Friday, 14 April). The ISS digipeater switched
> > to 145.825 MHz in time for afternoon/evening passes over Europe (around
> > 1330-1400 UTC). Lots of stations showed up, based on looking at the
> > ariss.net web site. The same thing started to happen here in North
> > America, later in the day. The passes I worked last night were not bad,
> > but there were more stations on one pass that went over much of the
> > continental USA than I'd typically see on 437.550 MHz.
> >
> > By midday today (1900 UTC), it seemed like many more stations were on the
> > frequency. I saw 11 other call signs on a pass just after that time this
> > afternoon. At best, there may have been 4 or 5 other operators at their
> > keyboards or keypads, looking to make contacts.
> > The others were just squawking away, not answering APRS messages sent to
> > them. By the time the ISS footprint was reaching the east coast, the
> > frequency was congested. Lots of position beacons were coming through,
> but
> > not much of anything else. This is not new; Clayton W5PFG wrote about
> this
> > about a year ago, here on the AMSAT-BB list:
> >
> > http://amsat.org/pipermail/amsat-bb/2016-April/058200.html
> >
> > For the two passes I worked this afternoon, around 1900 and 2035 UTC, I
> > made two QSOs on the earlier pass, and one on the later pass. A shame,
> > considering there were so many other call signs on the earlier pass, and
> > even some rare spots - stations in DM44 in northern Arizona and CM86 in
> > Santa Cruz CA were seen.
> >
> > It is interesting that hams want to have their stations squawk on
> > 145.825 MHz when nobody is at the keyboard. It could be doing it 24/7, no
> > matter if the ISS is in view or not. Would anyone think of setting up
> > their satellite station to automatically transmit their call sign and
> > location every 15/30/60 seconds to SO-50, unattended? I think not! That
> > could be a violation of the regulations, and would definitely be poor
> form
> > by that operator.
> >
> > Bob Bruninga WB4APR has a couple of documents with recommendations for
> > beacon intervals when working the ISS digipeater. One mentioned a
> 5-minute
> > interval for unattended stations:
> >
> > http://www.aprs.org/iss-aprs/iss-tx.txt
> >
> > Another document recommends that unattended stations should be in
> "receive
> > ONLY mode." (emphasis is Bob's):
> >
> > http://www.aprs.org/iss-aprs/utiquet.txt
> >
> > I agree with the latter. If your station is unattended, why have it
> > transmit at all?! It may be different for less-populated parts of the
> > world, where gateway stations may transmit and then receive their beacons
> > from the ISS, which will show up on ariss.net and other sites. For
> Europe,
> > and definitely North America, the gateways really don't need to transmit
> > if they are unattended. There should be activity on most passes, maybe
> > even late into the night, to know 145.825 MHz on the ISS is up and
> > running.
> >
> > Please don't misunderstand me... I think it is great for hams to set up
> > gateway stations listening on 145.825 MHz for the space-borne APRS
> > activity (ISS, NO-84, even NO-44 when it gets enough power to transmit
> > complete packets). But these stations, like other stations that aren't
> > operating as gateways yet transmit automatically, shouldn't contribute to
> > the congestion on the frequency.
> >
> > I know I am in the minority on the ISS digipeater moving back to
> > 145.825 MHz. Between the unattended stations clogging up the frequency
> and
> > some local interference I hear on 145.825 MHz around my house, having the
> > ISS on 437.550 MHz was fun! I worked it from home, and on some of my road
> > trips in the past 5+ months. Even for some of my last NPOTA activations
> at
> > the end of 2016. I'll continue to work the ISS digipeater, almost
> > exclusively with my APRS-ready HTs (TH-D72A, or TH-D74A), looking to make
> > QSOs by exchanging APRS messages with other stations. If you can work
> > packet from your station, and we are in the same footprints, I hope to
> > hear you (and see you on my screen) soon. Like W5PFG mentioned a year
> ago,
> > let's get more stations on 145.825 MHz making QSOs...
> >
> > 73!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Patrick WD9EWK/VA7EWK
> > http://www.wd9ewk.net/
> > Twitter: @xxxxxx
> > _______________________________________________
> > Sent via AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to
> > all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions
> > expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official
> > views of AMSAT-NA.
> > Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
> program!
> > Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
> > _______________________________________________
> > Sent via AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
> > to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
> Opinions expressed
> > are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
> AMSAT-NA.
> > Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
> program!
> > Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
> _______________________________________________
> Sent via AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions
> expressed
> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
> AMSAT-NA.
> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
> Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2017 15:05:20 -0700
From: Mike Diehl <diehl.mike.a@xxxxx.xxx>
To: Stefan Wagener <wageners@xxxxx.xxx>
Cc: AMSAT BB <amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx>, Gabriel Zeifman
<gabrielzeifman@xxxxx.xxx>
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Thoughts on ISS packet switch back to 145.825
MHz (long)
Message-ID: <651D80DE-BD7D-4AF5-9ED3-0C624F4F9335@xxxxx.xxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Stefan,
I think you're taking Gabe's comment too literal. The point he's trying to
make is that many stations just keep on transmitting when they can't hear
anything.
We can use that amateur radio on ISS as an experiment as an excuse but that
doesn't really fly. APRS is beyond an experiment as it is a well established
form of using APRS via satellite, nothing new here.
Furthermore, what is the point of trying repeatedly to transmit if you can't
decode? It is the golden rule for a reason and it applies everywhere,
satellite or terrestrial. If you can't hear it you can't work it, bottom
line. Until you can decode packets you're just creating QRM.
73,
Mike Diehl
AI6GS
> On Apr 16, 2017, at 2:46 PM, Stefan Wagener <wageners@xxxxx.xxx> wrote:
>
> Hi Gabe,
>
> With all respect I very much disagree. The amateur radio equipment on the
> ISS is an experiment! Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. Based on
> your location, equipment and ISS position you will* NOT* decode every
> packet, and yes that includes your own packets. So folks will be trying
> again and that's okay. *They don't become a source of QRM* on the ISS since
> the ISS will only re-transmit if its a good packet. They are exercising
> their license privileges to work through the ISS and for many having that
> first digipeat after many tries is their success story and we welcome that.
>
> 73, Stefan, VE4NSA
>
>
>
> On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 1:43 PM, Gabriel Zeifman <gabrielzeifman@xxxxx.xxx>
> wrote:
>
>> I think the golden rule of working all sats applies to ISS as well: if you
>> can't hear (or decode), don't transmit! It's easy to become a source of QRM
>> if you keep transmitting in the blind when you can't hear.
>>
>> 73,
>> Gabe
>> NJ7H
>>
>>> On Apr 16, 2017, at 1:28 PM, Robert Bruninga <bruninga@xxxx.xxx> wrote:
>>>
>>> I agree completely. ISS digipeting should be for LIVE operators. Or for
>>> LIVE things.... (a student experimental ocean going buoy for example)...
>>>
>>> NOT for non-moving-fixed egos...
>>>
>>> Bob, WB4APR
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: AMSAT-BB [mailto:amsat-bb-bounces@xxxxx.xxxx On Behalf Of Patrick
>>> STODDARD (WD9EWK/VA7EWK)
>>> Sent: Saturday, April 15, 2017 7:51 PM
>>> To: amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx
>>> Subject: [amsat-bb] Thoughts on ISS packet switch back to 145.825 MHz
>>> (long)
>>>
>>> Hi!
>>>
>>> Earlier today, I tweeted a quick comment about what I saw on the ISS
>>> 145.825 MHz digipeater just after 1900 UTC this afternoon. Since tweets
>>> are limited in length, I'm posting a longer message here...
>>>
>>> In the past few weeks, once word got out that a replacement for the
>> failed
>>> Ericsson VHF HT on the ISS was being sent up to the station, many were
>>> anxiously looking forward to seeing the ISS digipeater move from 437.550
>>> MHz back to 145.825 MHz, where it had been until the old radio's failure
>>> in mid-October 2016. I understood that many would welcome this change,
>> but
>>> I was not jumping up and down with excitement. Unfortunately, after
>> seeing
>>> the activity on the ISS digipeater in the past day or so since the
>>> replacement VHF radio was put on 145.825 MHz, my worries have been
>>> confirmed.
>>>
>>> For many, the move to 437.550 MHz meant many stations that could easily
>>> work 145.825 MHz would have to change. Whether it was a different antenna
>>> for the 70cm band or dealing with Doppler with the 437.550 MHz frequency,
>>> almost all of the unattended stations that had been present on the
>> 145.825
>>> MHz frequency were gone. If you wanted to use the ISS digipeater to work
>>> other stations, this was a great opportunity. Many stations using
>>> APRS-ready HTs and mobile transceivers were showing up, using a group of
>>> memory channels to compensate for Doppler, and were making contacts. Some
>>> fixed stations, including those already capable of satellite operating,
>>> were also showing up. Even on the busier passes, the
>>> 437.550 MHz always seemed to be clear of the clutter from the unattended
>>> stations that previously inhabited 145.825 MHz.
>>>
>>> Fast forward to yesterday (Friday, 14 April). The ISS digipeater switched
>>> to 145.825 MHz in time for afternoon/evening passes over Europe (around
>>> 1330-1400 UTC). Lots of stations showed up, based on looking at the
>>> ariss.net web site. The same thing started to happen here in North
>>> America, later in the day. The passes I worked last night were not bad,
>>> but there were more stations on one pass that went over much of the
>>> continental USA than I'd typically see on 437.550 MHz.
>>>
>>> By midday today (1900 UTC), it seemed like many more stations were on the
>>> frequency. I saw 11 other call signs on a pass just after that time this
>>> afternoon. At best, there may have been 4 or 5 other operators at their
>>> keyboards or keypads, looking to make contacts.
>>> The others were just squawking away, not answering APRS messages sent to
>>> them. By the time the ISS footprint was reaching the east coast, the
>>> frequency was congested. Lots of position beacons were coming through,
>> but
>>> not much of anything else. This is not new; Clayton W5PFG wrote about
>> this
>>> about a year ago, here on the AMSAT-BB list:
>>>
>>> http://amsat.org/pipermail/amsat-bb/2016-April/058200.html
>>>
>>> For the two passes I worked this afternoon, around 1900 and 2035 UTC, I
>>> made two QSOs on the earlier pass, and one on the later pass. A shame,
>>> considering there were so many other call signs on the earlier pass, and
>>> even some rare spots - stations in DM44 in northern Arizona and CM86 in
>>> Santa Cruz CA were seen.
>>>
>>> It is interesting that hams want to have their stations squawk on
>>> 145.825 MHz when nobody is at the keyboard. It could be doing it 24/7, no
>>> matter if the ISS is in view or not. Would anyone think of setting up
>>> their satellite station to automatically transmit their call sign and
>>> location every 15/30/60 seconds to SO-50, unattended? I think not! That
>>> could be a violation of the regulations, and would definitely be poor
>> form
>>> by that operator.
>>>
>>> Bob Bruninga WB4APR has a couple of documents with recommendations for
>>> beacon intervals when working the ISS digipeater. One mentioned a
>> 5-minute
>>> interval for unattended stations:
>>>
>>> http://www.aprs.org/iss-aprs/iss-tx.txt
>>>
>>> Another document recommends that unattended stations should be in
>> "receive
>>> ONLY mode." (emphasis is Bob's):
>>>
>>> http://www.aprs.org/iss-aprs/utiquet.txt
>>>
>>> I agree with the latter. If your station is unattended, why have it
>>> transmit at all?! It may be different for less-populated parts of the
>>> world, where gateway stations may transmit and then receive their beacons
>>> from the ISS, which will show up on ariss.net and other sites. For
>> Europe,
>>> and definitely North America, the gateways really don't need to transmit
>>> if they are unattended. There should be activity on most passes, maybe
>>> even late into the night, to know 145.825 MHz on the ISS is up and
>>> running.
>>>
>>> Please don't misunderstand me... I think it is great for hams to set up
>>> gateway stations listening on 145.825 MHz for the space-borne APRS
>>> activity (ISS, NO-84, even NO-44 when it gets enough power to transmit
>>> complete packets). But these stations, like other stations that aren't
>>> operating as gateways yet transmit automatically, shouldn't contribute to
>>> the congestion on the frequency.
>>>
>>> I know I am in the minority on the ISS digipeater moving back to
>>> 145.825 MHz. Between the unattended stations clogging up the frequency
>> and
>>> some local interference I hear on 145.825 MHz around my house, having the
>>> ISS on 437.550 MHz was fun! I worked it from home, and on some of my road
>>> trips in the past 5+ months. Even for some of my last NPOTA activations
>> at
>>> the end of 2016. I'll continue to work the ISS digipeater, almost
>>> exclusively with my APRS-ready HTs (TH-D72A, or TH-D74A), looking to make
>>> QSOs by exchanging APRS messages with other stations. If you can work
>>> packet from your station, and we are in the same footprints, I hope to
>>> hear you (and see you on my screen) soon. Like W5PFG mentioned a year
>> ago,
>>> let's get more stations on 145.825 MHz making QSOs...
>>>
>>> 73!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Patrick WD9EWK/VA7EWK
>>> http://www.wd9ewk.net/
>>> Twitter: @xxxxxx
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Sent via AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to
>>> all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions
>>> expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official
>>> views of AMSAT-NA.
>>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
>> program!
>>> Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Sent via AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
>>> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
>> Opinions expressed
>>> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
>> AMSAT-NA.
>>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
>> program!
>>> Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>> _______________________________________________
>> Sent via AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
>> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions
>> expressed
>> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
>> AMSAT-NA.
>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
>> Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Sent via AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions
expressed
> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
AMSAT-NA.
> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
> Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2017 17:18:18 -0500
From: Stefan Wagener <wageners@xxxxx.xxx>
To: Mike Diehl <diehl.mike.a@xxxxx.xxx>
Cc: AMSAT BB <amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx>, Gabriel Zeifman
<gabrielzeifman@xxxxx.xxx>
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Thoughts on ISS packet switch back to 145.825
MHz (long)
Message-ID:
<CAKu8kHDET16HVbEbwQJOjgQDrYyBd6eCmeOK_9J88L_-P_mhzA@xxxx.xxxxx.xxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Thanks Mike,
Again, you don't seem to get the point. Based on your setup, TNC, software
etc you will NOT be able to decode every single packet and based on your
setup and the ISS position the ISS digipeater will not re-transmit. It's
the nature of the beast. No, you are not creating QRM if the ISS does not
repeat your packet. Listen to the path of the ISS and you will hear that
50% of the time the radio is silent. It does not TX since there are no
valid packets. Where is the QRM? There is none other than in you local
environment where nobody cares. Don't discourage those that are trying to
make it work. If you want a case, point out the stations and callsigns that
create QRM and are not listenting/responding!
Just check out the last pass over the US. You will find 10 stations, that's
a station a minute with room to spare. This is NOT SO-50!
73, Stefan, VE4NSA
On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 5:05 PM, Mike Diehl <diehl.mike.a@xxxxx.xxx> wrote:
> Stefan,
>
> I think you're taking Gabe's comment too literal. The point he's trying to
> make is that many stations just keep on transmitting when they can't hear
> anything.
>
> We can use that amateur radio on ISS as an experiment as an excuse but
> that doesn't really fly. APRS is beyond an experiment as it is a well
> established form of using APRS via satellite, nothing new here.
>
> Furthermore, what is the point of trying repeatedly to transmit if you
> can't decode? It is the golden rule for a reason and it applies everywhere,
> satellite or terrestrial. If you can't hear it you can't work it, bottom
> line. Until you can decode packets you're just creating QRM.
>
> 73,
>
> Mike Diehl
> AI6GS
>
> > On Apr 16, 2017, at 2:46 PM, Stefan Wagener <wageners@xxxxx.xxx> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Gabe,
> >
> > With all respect I very much disagree. The amateur radio equipment on the
> > ISS is an experiment! Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. Based
> on
> > your location, equipment and ISS position you will* NOT* decode every
> > packet, and yes that includes your own packets. So folks will be trying
> > again and that's okay. *They don't become a source of QRM* on the ISS
> since
> > the ISS will only re-transmit if its a good packet. They are exercising
> > their license privileges to work through the ISS and for many having that
> > first digipeat after many tries is their success story and we welcome
> that.
> >
> > 73, Stefan, VE4NSA
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 1:43 PM, Gabriel Zeifman <
> gabrielzeifman@xxxxx.xxx>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> I think the golden rule of working all sats applies to ISS as well: if
> you
> >> can't hear (or decode), don't transmit! It's easy to become a source of
> QRM
> >> if you keep transmitting in the blind when you can't hear.
> >>
> >> 73,
> >> Gabe
> >> NJ7H
> >>
> >>> On Apr 16, 2017, at 1:28 PM, Robert Bruninga <bruninga@xxxx.xxx>
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> I agree completely. ISS digipeting should be for LIVE operators. Or
> for
> >>> LIVE things.... (a student experimental ocean going buoy for
> example)...
> >>>
> >>> NOT for non-moving-fixed egos...
> >>>
> >>> Bob, WB4APR
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: AMSAT-BB [mailto:amsat-bb-bounces@xxxxx.xxxx On Behalf Of
> Patrick
> >>> STODDARD (WD9EWK/VA7EWK)
> >>> Sent: Saturday, April 15, 2017 7:51 PM
> >>> To: amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx
> >>> Subject: [amsat-bb] Thoughts on ISS packet switch back to 145.825 MHz
> >>> (long)
> >>>
> >>> Hi!
> >>>
> >>> Earlier today, I tweeted a quick comment about what I saw on the ISS
> >>> 145.825 MHz digipeater just after 1900 UTC this afternoon. Since tweets
> >>> are limited in length, I'm posting a longer message here...
> >>>
> >>> In the past few weeks, once word got out that a replacement for the
> >> failed
> >>> Ericsson VHF HT on the ISS was being sent up to the station, many were
> >>> anxiously looking forward to seeing the ISS digipeater move from
> 437.550
> >>> MHz back to 145.825 MHz, where it had been until the old radio's
> failure
> >>> in mid-October 2016. I understood that many would welcome this change,
> >> but
> >>> I was not jumping up and down with excitement. Unfortunately, after
> >> seeing
> >>> the activity on the ISS digipeater in the past day or so since the
> >>> replacement VHF radio was put on 145.825 MHz, my worries have been
> >>> confirmed.
> >>>
> >>> For many, the move to 437.550 MHz meant many stations that could easily
> >>> work 145.825 MHz would have to change. Whether it was a different
> antenna
> >>> for the 70cm band or dealing with Doppler with the 437.550 MHz
> frequency,
> >>> almost all of the unattended stations that had been present on the
> >> 145.825
> >>> MHz frequency were gone. If you wanted to use the ISS digipeater to
> work
> >>> other stations, this was a great opportunity. Many stations using
> >>> APRS-ready HTs and mobile transceivers were showing up, using a group
> of
> >>> memory channels to compensate for Doppler, and were making contacts.
> Some
> >>> fixed stations, including those already capable of satellite operating,
> >>> were also showing up. Even on the busier passes, the
> >>> 437.550 MHz always seemed to be clear of the clutter from the
> unattended
> >>> stations that previously inhabited 145.825 MHz.
> >>>
> >>> Fast forward to yesterday (Friday, 14 April). The ISS digipeater
> switched
> >>> to 145.825 MHz in time for afternoon/evening passes over Europe (around
> >>> 1330-1400 UTC). Lots of stations showed up, based on looking at the
> >>> ariss.net web site. The same thing started to happen here in North
> >>> America, later in the day. The passes I worked last night were not bad,
> >>> but there were more stations on one pass that went over much of the
> >>> continental USA than I'd typically see on 437.550 MHz.
> >>>
> >>> By midday today (1900 UTC), it seemed like many more stations were on
> the
> >>> frequency. I saw 11 other call signs on a pass just after that time
> this
> >>> afternoon. At best, there may have been 4 or 5 other operators at their
> >>> keyboards or keypads, looking to make contacts.
> >>> The others were just squawking away, not answering APRS messages sent
> to
> >>> them. By the time the ISS footprint was reaching the east coast, the
> >>> frequency was congested. Lots of position beacons were coming through,
> >> but
> >>> not much of anything else. This is not new; Clayton W5PFG wrote about
> >> this
> >>> about a year ago, here on the AMSAT-BB list:
> >>>
> >>> http://amsat.org/pipermail/amsat-bb/2016-April/058200.html
> >>>
> >>> For the two passes I worked this afternoon, around 1900 and 2035 UTC, I
> >>> made two QSOs on the earlier pass, and one on the later pass. A shame,
> >>> considering there were so many other call signs on the earlier pass,
> and
> >>> even some rare spots - stations in DM44 in northern Arizona and CM86 in
> >>> Santa Cruz CA were seen.
> >>>
> >>> It is interesting that hams want to have their stations squawk on
> >>> 145.825 MHz when nobody is at the keyboard. It could be doing it 24/7,
> no
> >>> matter if the ISS is in view or not. Would anyone think of setting up
> >>> their satellite station to automatically transmit their call sign and
> >>> location every 15/30/60 seconds to SO-50, unattended? I think not! That
> >>> could be a violation of the regulations, and would definitely be poor
> >> form
> >>> by that operator.
> >>>
> >>> Bob Bruninga WB4APR has a couple of documents with recommendations for
> >>> beacon intervals when working the ISS digipeater. One mentioned a
> >> 5-minute
> >>> interval for unattended stations:
> >>>
> >>> http://www.aprs.org/iss-aprs/iss-tx.txt
> >>>
> >>> Another document recommends that unattended stations should be in
> >> "receive
> >>> ONLY mode." (emphasis is Bob's):
> >>>
> >>> http://www.aprs.org/iss-aprs/utiquet.txt
> >>>
> >>> I agree with the latter. If your station is unattended, why have it
> >>> transmit at all?! It may be different for less-populated parts of the
> >>> world, where gateway stations may transmit and then receive their
> beacons
> >>> from the ISS, which will show up on ariss.net and other sites. For
> >> Europe,
> >>> and definitely North America, the gateways really don't need to
> transmit
> >>> if they are unattended. There should be activity on most passes, maybe
> >>> even late into the night, to know 145.825 MHz on the ISS is up and
> >>> running.
> >>>
> >>> Please don't misunderstand me... I think it is great for hams to set up
> >>> gateway stations listening on 145.825 MHz for the space-borne APRS
> >>> activity (ISS, NO-84, even NO-44 when it gets enough power to transmit
> >>> complete packets). But these stations, like other stations that aren't
> >>> operating as gateways yet transmit automatically, shouldn't contribute
> to
> >>> the congestion on the frequency.
> >>>
> >>> I know I am in the minority on the ISS digipeater moving back to
> >>> 145.825 MHz. Between the unattended stations clogging up the frequency
> >> and
> >>> some local interference I hear on 145.825 MHz around my house, having
> the
> >>> ISS on 437.550 MHz was fun! I worked it from home, and on some of my
> road
> >>> trips in the past 5+ months. Even for some of my last NPOTA activations
> >> at
> >>> the end of 2016. I'll continue to work the ISS digipeater, almost
> >>> exclusively with my APRS-ready HTs (TH-D72A, or TH-D74A), looking to
> make
> >>> QSOs by exchanging APRS messages with other stations. If you can work
> >>> packet from your station, and we are in the same footprints, I hope to
> >>> hear you (and see you on my screen) soon. Like W5PFG mentioned a year
> >> ago,
> >>> let's get more stations on 145.825 MHz making QSOs...
> >>>
> >>> 73!
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Patrick WD9EWK/VA7EWK
> >>> http://www.wd9ewk.net/
> >>> Twitter: @xxxxxx
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Sent via AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
> to
> >>> all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions
> >>> expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the
> official
> >>> views of AMSAT-NA.
> >>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
> >> program!
> >>> Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Sent via AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
> >>> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
> >> Opinions expressed
> >>> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views
> of
> >> AMSAT-NA.
> >>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
> >> program!
> >>> Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Sent via AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
> >> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
> Opinions
> >> expressed
> >> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
> >> AMSAT-NA.
> >> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
> program!
> >> Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
> >>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Sent via AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
> > to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
> Opinions expressed
> > are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
> AMSAT-NA.
> > Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
> program!
> > Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2017 16:03:25 -0700
From: Mike Diehl <diehl.mike.a@xxxxx.xxx>
To: Stefan Wagener <wageners@xxxxx.xxx>
Cc: AMSAT BB <amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx>, Gabriel Zeifman
<gabrielzeifman@xxxxx.xxx>
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Thoughts on ISS packet switch back to 145.825
MHz (long)
Message-ID: <8BAFD6CB-BB91-493A-9048-6EE8DB4AEBB2@xxxxx.xxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Stefan,
Yes, you won't decode 100% and none of has said that you should. I think you
have a misunderstanding of what is happening at the receiver on ISS.
If we are all transmitting at it and it can't decode any of us then the
transmitter is silent. If the setup is anything like most then it won't
transmit until it is done receiving as a matter of fact. The QRM we are
talking about is at the ISS, not local. For instance, if I'm not decoding
anything and keep transmitting while you are trying to get in then we
accomplish nothing. Our signals are mixing or tail ending so the TNC ignores
us both. What exactly does that accomplish? Using transmitted packets as a
gauge for who is trying to get in makes no sense. If we all keep trying to
get in at the same time then zero packets will be transmitted. Using your
logic one would assume nobody had tried to work the ISS when in actuality
everyone did.
Also, local QRM is exactly that, local. You may not have a problem with
other stations being decoded via terrestrial but that's not the case here in
DM14. I have many active ops on ISS around here and have received them
without digipeating. I do not blame them for this, it is just part of how it
works.
Encouraging anyone trying to transmit when they can't hear ANYTHING is just
flat out bad advice. I'll do my best to discourage this every time. I would
love to hear how you think it is beneficial for a station to transmit when
they can't hear what is going on.
73,
Mike Diehl
AI6GS
> On Apr 16, 2017, at 3:18 PM, Stefan Wagener <wageners@xxxxx.xxx> wrote:
>
> Thanks Mike,
>
> Again, you don't seem to get the point. Based on your setup, TNC, software
etc you will NOT be able to decode every single packet and based on your
setup and the ISS position the ISS digipeater will not re-transmit. It's the
nature of the beast. No, you are not creating QRM if the ISS does not repeat
your packet. Listen to the path of the ISS and you will hear that 50% of the
time the radio is silent. It does not TX since there are no valid packets.
Where is the QRM? There is none other than in you local environment where
nobody cares. Don't discourage those that are trying to make it work. If you
want a case, point out the stations and callsigns that create QRM and are
not listenting/responding!
>
> Just check out the last pass over the US. You will find 10 stations,
that's a station a minute with room to spare. This is NOT SO-50!
>
> 73, Stefan, VE4NSA
>
>
>
>> On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 5:05 PM, Mike Diehl <diehl.mike.a@xxxxx.xxx> wrote:
>> Stefan,
>>
>> I think you're taking Gabe's comment too literal. The point he's trying
to make is that many stations just keep on transmitting when they can't hear
anything.
>>
>> We can use that amateur radio on ISS as an experiment as an excuse but
that doesn't really fly. APRS is beyond an experiment as it is a well
established form of using APRS via satellite, nothing new here.
>>
>> Furthermore, what is the point of trying repeatedly to transmit if you
can't decode? It is the golden rule for a reason and it applies everywhere,
satellite or terrestrial. If you can't hear it you can't work it, bottom
line. Until you can decode packets you're just creating QRM.
>>
>> 73,
>>
>> Mike Diehl
>> AI6GS
>>
>> > On Apr 16, 2017, at 2:46 PM, Stefan Wagener <wageners@xxxxx.xxx> wrote:
>> >
>> > Hi Gabe,
>> >
>> > With all respect I very much disagree. The amateur radio equipment on the
>> > ISS is an experiment! Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't.
Based on
>> > your location, equipment and ISS position you will* NOT* decode every
>> > packet, and yes that includes your own packets. So folks will be trying
>> > again and that's okay. *They don't become a source of QRM* on the ISS
since
>> > the ISS will only re-transmit if its a good packet. They are exercising
>> > their license privileges to work through the ISS and for many having that
>> > first digipeat after many tries is their success story and we welcome
that.
>> >
>> > 73, Stefan, VE4NSA
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 1:43 PM, Gabriel Zeifman
<gabrielzeifman@xxxxx.xxx>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >> I think the golden rule of working all sats applies to ISS as well: if
you
>> >> can't hear (or decode), don't transmit! It's easy to become a source
of QRM
>> >> if you keep transmitting in the blind when you can't hear.
>> >>
>> >> 73,
>> >> Gabe
>> >> NJ7H
>> >>
>> >>> On Apr 16, 2017, at 1:28 PM, Robert Bruninga <bruninga@xxxx.xxx> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> I agree completely. ISS digipeting should be for LIVE operators. Or
for
>> >>> LIVE things.... (a student experimental ocean going buoy for
example)...
>> >>>
>> >>> NOT for non-moving-fixed egos...
>> >>>
>> >>> Bob, WB4APR
>> >>>
>> >>> -----Original Message-----
>> >>> From: AMSAT-BB [mailto:amsat-bb-bounces@xxxxx.xxxx On Behalf Of Patrick
>> >>> STODDARD (WD9EWK/VA7EWK)
>> >>> Sent: Saturday, April 15, 2017 7:51 PM
>> >>> To: amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx
>> >>> Subject: [amsat-bb] Thoughts on ISS packet switch back to 145.825 MHz
>> >>> (long)
>> >>>
>> >>> Hi!
>> >>>
>> >>> Earlier today, I tweeted a quick comment about what I saw on the ISS
>> >>> 145.825 MHz digipeater just after 1900 UTC this afternoon. Since tweets
>> >>> are limited in length, I'm posting a longer message here...
>> >>>
>> >>> In the past few weeks, once word got out that a replacement for the
>> >> failed
>> >>> Ericsson VHF HT on the ISS was being sent up to the station, many were
>> >>> anxiously looking forward to seeing the ISS digipeater move from
437.550
>> >>> MHz back to 145.825 MHz, where it had been until the old radio's
failure
>> >>> in mid-October 2016. I understood that many would welcome this change,
>> >> but
>> >>> I was not jumping up and down with excitement. Unfortunately, after
>> >> seeing
>> >>> the activity on the ISS digipeater in the past day or so since the
>> >>> replacement VHF radio was put on 145.825 MHz, my worries have been
>> >>> confirmed.
>> >>>
>> >>> For many, the move to 437.550 MHz meant many stations that could easily
>> >>> work 145.825 MHz would have to change. Whether it was a different
antenna
>> >>> for the 70cm band or dealing with Doppler with the 437.550 MHz
frequency,
>> >>> almost all of the unattended stations that had been present on the
>> >> 145.825
>> >>> MHz frequency were gone. If you wanted to use the ISS digipeater to
work
>> >>> other stations, this was a great opportunity. Many stations using
>> >>> APRS-ready HTs and mobile transceivers were showing up, using a group
of
>> >>> memory channels to compensate for Doppler, and were making contacts.
Some
>> >>> fixed stations, including those already capable of satellite operating,
>> >>> were also showing up. Even on the busier passes, the
>> >>> 437.550 MHz always seemed to be clear of the clutter from the
unattended
>> >>> stations that previously inhabited 145.825 MHz.
>> >>>
>> >>> Fast forward to yesterday (Friday, 14 April). The ISS digipeater
switched
>> >>> to 145.825 MHz in time for afternoon/evening passes over Europe (around
>> >>> 1330-1400 UTC). Lots of stations showed up, based on looking at the
>> >>> ariss.net web site. The same thing started to happen here in North
>> >>> America, later in the day. The passes I worked last night were not bad,
>> >>> but there were more stations on one pass that went over much of the
>> >>> continental USA than I'd typically see on 437.550 MHz.
>> >>>
>> >>> By midday today (1900 UTC), it seemed like many more stations were on
the
>> >>> frequency. I saw 11 other call signs on a pass just after that time
this
>> >>> afternoon. At best, there may have been 4 or 5 other operators at their
>> >>> keyboards or keypads, looking to make contacts.
>> >>> The others were just squawking away, not answering APRS messages sent
to
>> >>> them. By the time the ISS footprint was reaching the east coast, the
>> >>> frequency was congested. Lots of position beacons were coming through,
>> >> but
>> >>> not much of anything else. This is not new; Clayton W5PFG wrote about
>> >> this
>> >>> about a year ago, here on the AMSAT-BB list:
>> >>>
>> >>> http://amsat.org/pipermail/amsat-bb/2016-April/058200.html
>> >>>
>> >>> For the two passes I worked this afternoon, around 1900 and 2035 UTC, I
>> >>> made two QSOs on the earlier pass, and one on the later pass. A shame,
>> >>> considering there were so many other call signs on the earlier pass,
and
>> >>> even some rare spots - stations in DM44 in northern Arizona and CM86 in
>> >>> Santa Cruz CA were seen.
>> >>>
>> >>> It is interesting that hams want to have their stations squawk on
>> >>> 145.825 MHz when nobody is at the keyboard. It could be doing it
24/7, no
>> >>> matter if the ISS is in view or not. Would anyone think of setting up
>> >>> their satellite station to automatically transmit their call sign and
>> >>> location every 15/30/60 seconds to SO-50, unattended? I think not! That
>> >>> could be a violation of the regulations, and would definitely be poor
>> >> form
>> >>> by that operator.
>> >>>
>> >>> Bob Bruninga WB4APR has a couple of documents with recommendations for
>> >>> beacon intervals when working the ISS digipeater. One mentioned a
>> >> 5-minute
>> >>> interval for unattended stations:
>> >>>
>> >>> http://www.aprs.org/iss-aprs/iss-tx.txt
>> >>>
>> >>> Another document recommends that unattended stations should be in
>> >> "receive
>> >>> ONLY mode." (emphasis is Bob's):
>> >>>
>> >>> http://www.aprs.org/iss-aprs/utiquet.txt
>> >>>
>> >>> I agree with the latter. If your station is unattended, why have it
>> >>> transmit at all?! It may be different for less-populated parts of the
>> >>> world, where gateway stations may transmit and then receive their
beacons
>> >>> from the ISS, which will show up on ariss.net and other sites. For
>> >> Europe,
>> >>> and definitely North America, the gateways really don't need to
transmit
>> >>> if they are unattended. There should be activity on most passes, maybe
>> >>> even late into the night, to know 145.825 MHz on the ISS is up and
>> >>> running.
>> >>>
>> >>> Please don't misunderstand me... I think it is great for hams to set up
>> >>> gateway stations listening on 145.825 MHz for the space-borne APRS
>> >>> activity (ISS, NO-84, even NO-44 when it gets enough power to transmit
>> >>> complete packets). But these stations, like other stations that aren't
>> >>> operating as gateways yet transmit automatically, shouldn't
contribute to
>> >>> the congestion on the frequency.
>> >>>
>> >>> I know I am in the minority on the ISS digipeater moving back to
>> >>> 145.825 MHz. Between the unattended stations clogging up the frequency
>> >> and
>> >>> some local interference I hear on 145.825 MHz around my house, having
the
>> >>> ISS on 437.550 MHz was fun! I worked it from home, and on some of my
road
>> >>> trips in the past 5+ months. Even for some of my last NPOTA activations
>> >> at
>> >>> the end of 2016. I'll continue to work the ISS digipeater, almost
>> >>> exclusively with my APRS-ready HTs (TH-D72A, or TH-D74A), looking to
make
>> >>> QSOs by exchanging APRS messages with other stations. If you can work
>> >>> packet from your station, and we are in the same footprints, I hope to
>> >>> hear you (and see you on my screen) soon. Like W5PFG mentioned a year
>> >> ago,
>> >>> let's get more stations on 145.825 MHz making QSOs...
>> >>>
>> >>> 73!
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Patrick WD9EWK/VA7EWK
>> >>> http://www.wd9ewk.net/
>> >>> Twitter: @xxxxxx
>> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> Sent via AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
to
>> >>> all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions
>> >>> expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the
official
>> >>> views of AMSAT-NA.
>> >>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
>> >> program!
>> >>> Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> Sent via AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
>> >>> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
>> >> Opinions expressed
>> >>> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views
of
>> >> AMSAT-NA.
>> >>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
>> >> program!
>> >>> Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Sent via AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
>> >> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
Opinions
>> >> expressed
>> >> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
>> >> AMSAT-NA.
>> >> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
program!
>> >> Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>> >>
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Sent via AMSAT-BB@xxxxx.xxx. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
>> > to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
Opinions expressed
>> > are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views
of AMSAT-NA.
>> > Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
program!
>> > Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>
------------------------------
Subject: Digest Footer
_______________________________________________
Sent via amsat-bb@xxxxx.xxx.
AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons worldwide
without requiring membership. Opinions expressed
are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
AMSAT-NA.
Not an AMSAT member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
------------------------------
End of AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol 12, Issue 101
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